New Years' day Cornbury Park walk?

Sat 15 Dec 2018, 11:54

Thanks for the clarification Tony you are correct of course and a better description would be in the Estate
I think most people find the walk in the forest which not in the park either is the most interesting

Thu 13 Dec 2018, 22:25

Walkers who came on the walk I led in May this year, for the Museum, may remember that I drew attention to the distinction between the'Park',enclosed by the wall or fence, and the wider area of the 'Forest'. Just to avoid any confusion: Apart from a short section approaching North Lodge (which Tony M has arranged since the time I used to lead it) the Parish Boundary Walk remains outside the wall, and therefore outside the Park. The first Part of the walk is on Cornbury Estate land and could be said to be 'in the Forest' but it is not 'entirely in the Park'.

Wed 12 Dec 2018, 06:55

Thanks for that link Steve
In fact Tony Graeme regularly has Cotswold Voluntary Wardens Walk through parts of the Park which I can strongly recommend.
Also the first part of the Annual Boundary walk is entirely through Cornbury Park

Fri 7 Dec 2018, 19:09

Jon, Glena,

Whilst it maybe difficult to find on the HMRC site, there is now a link on the Estate website

www.cornburypark.co.uk/permit-entry-scheme.html

It would be interesting to know if anyone has walked under this arrangement.

Fri 7 Dec 2018, 18:10

There is a map and conditions of access at www.visitukheritage.gov.uk/servlet/com.eds.ir.cto.servlet.CtoLandDetailServlet?ID=503

This suggests EITHER that most of the Forest is accessible via the public footpaths (I.e. you can go where you like once you have got in), OR that only the rights of Way are accessible.

When I came to Charlbury about 20 years ago I understood that the deer park was open by request on Thursday afternoons under the tax scheme mentioned here, but there is no mention of this specific arrangement on the HMRC website. Are my facts and/or my memory correct?

By the way, the Lord Rotherwick referred to in this thread is the father of the present Lord.

Fri 7 Dec 2018, 16:06

Thanks Christine and Glena - interesting stuff!

Fri 7 Dec 2018, 13:13

Interesting what Christine found in the VCH. We came to Charlbury in 1979 but my brother-in-law and sister-in-law came in 1975 and they told us of what must be one of the most sedate protests ever. The Watney family, who owned Cornbury before Lord Rotherwick, allowed the inhabitants of Charlbury to walk in the grounds every Thursday (can't remember whether it was all day or just Thurs. afternoons and presumably they had to keep to the paths). Lord Rotherwick withdrew this and, of course, the town was angry. A protest in the 70s was organised (I think by the Charlbury Society) and law abiding retired ambassadors, doctors, academics (and others !) walked up to the closed gates and stood there with placards. I do not know if they tied themselves to the gates but I do think that someone from the house came down and spoke to them. Doubtless there must be people in Charlbury still alive who went on this march. Nothing was achieved unfortunately.

Fri 7 Dec 2018, 11:51 (last edited on Fri 7 Dec 2018, 11:52)

That might be the case, Liz, but if so it is unlikely to be because of a lack of activity by searchers for 'lost' Rights of Way. The most recent example of their success being the re-establishment of the bridleway between the end of Water(y) Lane and Dean Grove in 2012. The report of the 1988 enquiry (not 1990) which established the present Right of Way through the Forest shows that The Ramblers, CPRE and others asked for ALL paths through the Forest to be designated Rights of Way. I think it is most likely that if any others could have been proved they would have been found that time.

Thu 6 Dec 2018, 17:58

Hannen, it could indeed be one of the lost footpaths.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/04/memory-lanes-the-ramblers-trying-to-save-10000-lost-footpaths

Thu 6 Dec 2018, 15:22

Agreed, a very interesting article. Thanks, Matthew.

It could be that tax was a factor, at least as far as the agreed public footpath is concerned. Thus, Cornbury does appear in an HMRC list that gives a degree of inheritance tax exemption in return for access rights. The page about it is here: www.hmrc.gov.uk/gds/heritage/lbsearch.htm

There might be a more complex to be told, however, with regard to the New Year's Day access, since that does not show up on that particular map.

The Victoria County History (now online!) tells us that after Cornbury was acquired by the Rotherwick family in 1966:

"the estate was run on increasingly commercial lines by Lord Rotherwick, whose reluctance to allow public access through the former forest woodland led to acrimonious public enquiries during the 1980s, inflaming an issue first raised in the 1950s. A single public footpath from Finstock to the road past Waterman's Lodge, avoiding most of the woodland, was eventually agreed in 1990, while traditional Palm Sunday access to the Wort and Chalybeate wells continued in 2017. Leafield inhabitants were additionally allowed to collect fallen wood from a designated area on Thursday afternoons, while Charlbury inhabitants had access to the park on New Year's Day."

See https://www.victoriacountyhistory.ac.uk/sites/default/files/work-in-progress/4_social_hist_0.pdf

Thu 6 Dec 2018, 10:42 (last edited on Thu 6 Dec 2018, 10:42)

The website is updated now.
As usual it says that the walk is only for residents of Charlbury which intrigues me. Does that mean that one has to carry ID? What happens to those who cannot prove they are a Charlbury resident?!
Also, it is (to my mind anyway) a strange condition which makes me wonder if it isn't a historical right buried in some Title document somewhere.
Fascinating article Matthew. Thank you. I had no idea that large swathes of this green and pleasant land were owned by offshore companies. It would be interesting to know how much the Exchequer loses as a result.

Thu 6 Dec 2018, 09:01

Interesting articles Matthew!

Wed 5 Dec 2018, 12:31

Does it matter? Well, it is certainly interesting, especially as we are being encouraged to be grateful for something that might only happen for tax reasons. Still don't know whether it is true but a quick bit of research did reveal that the owner of Cornbury (not the current tenants) and the Cornbury estate did appear in Private Eye's special report on tax havens. See page 4, third column:

private-eye.co.uk/pictures/special_reports/tax-havens.pdf

Tue 4 Dec 2018, 12:45 (last edited on Tue 4 Dec 2018, 12:46)

Cornbury is let out to tenants on a lease that was advertised (by Savills in 2016) as costing £30,000 per month. The "new" tenants have been there now for more than a year, I believe. I think we should all be pleased that the lease allows the New Year's Day walk to take place, provided that the public access conditions are observed.

Perhaps there are tax advantages. But does it really matter? Cornbury Estate gets tax advantages also in other ways. It includes a Nature Reserve, for example. And I don't think the tenants benefit much (and probably not at all) from Charlbury walkers.

Tue 4 Dec 2018, 11:49 (last edited on Tue 4 Dec 2018, 11:49)

I'd been told in the past that the reason this happens is so the estate can save on tax in some way. Is this true?

Tue 4 Dec 2018, 09:07

New tenants?

Mon 3 Dec 2018, 19:07 (last edited on Mon 3 Dec 2018, 19:09)

That is good news indeed Richard
This was discussed with Tony Graeme on Saturday and hoping this was sill going ahead with the new tenants in place
I would just say that it is important that we all stick to the conditions so that it can continue to take place in coming years. Tugging forelocks is not required just a thank you to the estate and in particular Lord Rotherwick for allowing this to continue.

Mon 3 Dec 2018, 10:47

Bit harsh Andrew!

Roger (town clerk) has just spoken to Cornbury and yes, the 1st January walk will go ahead. Usual conditions: keep to the paths and tracks, don't go near to or otherwise disturb the deer, and no dogs.

Mon 3 Dec 2018, 07:03

Did you remember to tug your forelock, Stephen? Or I believe genuflection is acceptable.

Sat 1 Dec 2018, 12:30

Anyone know if we will be permitted to walk in the Park on 1st January 2019? I have emailed and left a message with the Estate office, but there has been no response and the community events section of the their website, still just lists 2018 walk, so has not been updated.