Save the Bull

Mon 2 Feb 2015, 10:33

People may find the CAMRA pub viability test www.camra.org.uk/public-house-viability-test handy. It is designed for just this sort of thing. Has anyone been in touch with North Oxfordshire CAMRA?

In terms of competitor case studies the Killingworth Castle - shut by Greene King and now thriving - is a good example in a much smaller village.

Mon 2 Feb 2015, 10:33

Agreed Mike but I won't be frequenting the Bull until new owners are in place
I can usually be found in the Rose between 5 and 7 on a friday

Sun 1 Feb 2015, 14:12

Hi Tony, we actually agree with each other on the main issue here but are somehow not reading each other's stuff as we intended. It's often not very constructive trying to correct misunderstandings in a forum, particularly if we are distracting people from the point of this thread.

But I'm keen that we find another way. So do drop me a line through the forum and I'll try to explain better.

I'm not intending to wind you up and I am always willing to learn. I learn next to nothing from people with whom I always agree.

All the best
MikeW
PS We could always meet up in The Bull to have a natter.

Sun 1 Feb 2015, 11:30 (last edited on Sun 1 Feb 2015, 12:06)

Simply Mike I would sell it as a going concern to someone who could run it successfully, rather than try & close a 300 year business with the negative impact on the town
I dont need financial statements to know that places like the crown at enstone are successful as was the bull previously

Sun 1 Feb 2015, 10:55

There is a very interesting letter (to Catherine) submitted to the planning department. Do read it. It's listed as Archaeology Comment, and is on the list with all the other objection comments. Apparently an archaeological monitoring and recording (watching brief) could be needed, should the application succeed, because "the current application proposal has the potential to disturb buried archaeological deposits relating to the early development of the settlement- particularly dating to the Anglo-Saxon and Medieval periods." Well done Catherine. Let's hope that this information will help people to write an objection. The more grounds there are, (no pun intended!) the stronger the case.

Sat 31 Jan 2015, 21:14

Hi again, again Tony!

Above all, please be clear that I want to see The Bull operate as a successful pub.

I'll recap and explain my understanding of the situation a bit further.

1) The Bull will not be granted permission for a change of use unless the planning department is persuaded that it cannot be run as a going concern in its present form.
2) Financial statements have been redacted from the public version of the planning application so none of us is in a position to know how the business is currently doing. But anyhow, evidence that it is not currently running as a going concern is obviously not proof that it cannot be.
3) None of us has financial statements for similar local businesses so we cannot assess their viability.
4) We have planning regulations and regulators to assess these matters with input from anybody that cares to contribute.
5) If The Bull really cannot be run as a going concern then I would expect the current owners to get the best price they can for the site.

To make it as simple as I can Tony, if you owned The Bull and, for whatever reason, you found that you could no longer operate it successfully as a pub, what would you do?

Sat 31 Jan 2015, 11:44 (last edited on Sat 31 Jan 2015, 11:47)

Mike I'm not trying to be difficult but I think there is some confused thinking on the thread & some personal views 'clouding' the issue.
My view is as follows
The present owners took over a successful business
They have run it in a way that they now say makes it non viable
There is no realistic competition for a high quality pub/restaurant in Charlbury
Many surrounding villages with smaller catchment areas support thriving pub/restaurants which this thread shows are frequented by charlbury residents & are often full
I believe this supports the view that the bull could be viable under new owners
I do not think there is any justification for the present owners going for change of use with the negative impact that would have on Charlbury
If they are not prepared to make the changes necessary they should sell the bull as a going concern to someone who will

Thu 29 Jan 2015, 22:38

Hi again Tony. I wonder if you read the second paragraph in my first post on this thread?

Thu 29 Jan 2015, 22:04

But the planners would not have to make that decision if the owners had put the business on the market as a going concern as they bought it

Thu 29 Jan 2015, 21:56

That's not what I said Tony.

Failing to run a business as a going concern is not proof that it cannot be run as a going concern. Obviously. The planners are going to make that judgement and if they get it wrong I will have ill feelings towards them.

Thu 29 Jan 2015, 20:48

Bmik

Mike you seem to suggest that it is ok for someone to take over a successful business, run it in a way that makes it unviable and then capitalise on this by obtaining change of use rather than sell as a going concern to someone who can return it to viability irrespective of the effect on the local community

Thu 29 Jan 2015, 16:31

Last Saturday's Guardian had a full page article "Pubs facing last orders as more developers cash in. Drinkers dismayed at growing trend for conversions into homes."

Thu 29 Jan 2015, 16:29 (last edited on Thu 29 Jan 2015, 16:30)

I'd find it difficult to have any ill-feeling towards the owners of The White Hart or, indeed, the owners of The Bull, if they sold them off for private development. I'd aim my feelings towards the planning regulations that permitted it, or the locals who didn't fight it.

I hope that an outcome can be found for The Bull that leaves it as a going concern. But if not, I wouldn't blame Alix and Stuart for selling to whoever is willing to buy it.

As many people seem to think, it would be a great shame for Charlbury if we lost The Bull.

Thu 29 Jan 2015, 15:04 (last edited on Thu 29 Jan 2015, 15:05)

Yes Pearl, I remember it well. Kate Sizer did a great job of closing it and selling off pieces of the land and then finally the Inn itself. There was an awful lot of ill-feeling towards her at the time, I seem to remember. In its heyday, to be fair, she and her husband David ran it together and it was a wonderful place to get some of Kate's Scottish speciality dishes, as she was a fantastic and hard-working cook. Everybody seemed to be in there at some point in the week, it was a real 'local'. Sadly after David's death, everything changed, but Kate appeared to be a hard-headed business woman and she milked the plot and the buildings to the maximum she could, as can be seen now. This historical precedent is why I am opposed to The Bull getting permission for change of usage, and presumably going the same was as the White Hart.

Thu 29 Jan 2015, 10:36 (last edited on Thu 29 Jan 2015, 10:47)

Yes, it was the White Hart which closed some time ago!

Wed 28 Jan 2015, 22:17 (last edited on Wed 28 Jan 2015, 22:18)

Has anyone noticed that Charlbury's last 17th Century Inn to be sold off for domestic use is on the market for £975,000?

Wed 28 Jan 2015, 20:44

I believe a business has to move with the times and modern day customers expect a pub to be open. whether one is serving a limited bar menu or more formal dinner/lunch menu. One will find the most successful pubs in the area are open all week. One cannot expect revenue without inviting business. if you shut the doors business is not coming in. I happily support The Bull and wish Alix and Stuart the very best.

Tue 27 Jan 2015, 17:23

I am sorry to offend; it is fair to point out to me that if a business says it is closed, then it is closed.

Tue 27 Jan 2015, 15:00

But we are talking about food led pubs. Two of the other pubs in Charlbury do not serve food at all & the other changes hands so often it isn't a real competitor.
So effectively the Bull is the only food led pub in the Town, & yet a constant theme of the the thread is that residents go out of Charlbury to eat because of quality/price/opening times.

Tue 27 Jan 2015, 14:13

That's true - and they are all the only pubs in their respective villages ...

Tue 27 Jan 2015, 14:04

It's worth noting, however, that Saturday afternoon pub closures have largely died out over the last ten years. The Plough, the Tite, the Royal Oak, the Killingworth Castle, the Swan (Swinbrook), the Kings Head (Bledington) and the Falkland Arms are all food-led rural pubs which stay open - the Crown in Church Enstone is the only one nearby I could find that doesn't.

Tue 27 Jan 2015, 10:49 (last edited on Tue 27 Jan 2015, 11:17)

I was going to say that too, but decided not to bother. Folk are entitled to object, but criticising an operation for being closed when it says it's closed, has always been closed - and its direct equivalents are mostly closed - is less than fair. I hope we can avoid protest slipping over into vindictive sniping. It's not difficult to see that a pub which specialises in food is unlikely to improve its profit margins by opening on a Saturday afternoon when two neighbouring pubs are open - but regardless, busibess decisions like that are a matter for the owners who have the figures in front of them, not for vote by acclamation on a web page.

Tue 27 Jan 2015, 09:41

In common with many pubs, particularly those that serve food, the Bull has always been closed mid-afternoon (3-6 on Saturdays). Finding a business closed when it says it will be closed is not surprising.

Mon 26 Jan 2015, 22:07

Telling. A pub that is not open is not a viable business.....(?)

Mon 26 Jan 2015, 20:52

Last Saturday, in the wonderful winter sunshine six of us went for a walk around the Ditchley Park area and after working up a thirst we ended up going for a drink. Rose and Crown very busy with bear festival, The Bell fairly busy, The Bull CLOSED. Maybe there's a business idea here.

Sun 25 Jan 2015, 21:07

Following Tony Morgan's post I wholeheartedly agree.

My family and I stayed at The Bull in August for a few nights and I booked a table at The Bell for the second night believing this to be the superior restaurant in the town (my basis was on the appearance of the website and the cost of the rooms). What we found was that The Bull has the superior restaurant (we have now had five consistently excellent meals the last one being yesterday). I can't comment on the rooms because I haven't stayed at The Bell.

So in my personal experience, and as an outsider (at the time) there was a disconnect with my assumption and our actual experience. I have only just arrived to the area so I have no idea what pubs, restaurant and hotels there are within the vicinity of Charlbury, I also have no idea as to what The Bull do by way of advertising but I am sure with a stronger brand / website and better differentiation they can better carve a segment in the market aimed towards those people looking for a higher quality dining experience (if the owners want to continue on this route, which I hope they do)

It does feel a little wrong to talk about Alix and Stuart in this way and hopefully they would be able to provide the best advice about what has and hasn't worked in terms of marketing their business. Ultimately what we're discussing here is both beneficial to us (we get to keep a fantastic resource) and hopefully beneficial to them (increased turnover)

Sat 24 Jan 2015, 09:44

Before we talk about other ways of saving The Bull, first and foremost we need to all send in our objections before it's too late (someone said the deadline is 6 Feb), using Liz Leffman's posts in "The Bull Hotel" thread to guide us on valid grounds for objection.

Fri 23 Jan 2015, 22:20

How lovely, Pearl. Those are the kind of memories that you never forget. Let's make Charlbury the best place in the world to be on New Year's eve! Ironically some of our family members were going to (try to) book the rooms out at the Bull for this year's NYE, but I don't think that will be happening now...

Fri 23 Jan 2015, 21:20

Many years ago when Dennis was landlord there the Bull used be heaving on Street Fair day you couldn't get in the door, was such fun and takings were amazing. I don't think that happens nowadays. New Years Eve was the same and we used to dance in the streets at midnight. Actually didn't need food the atmosphere was enough. Certainly profitable in those days, just saying.

Fri 23 Jan 2015, 20:22

Would it be appropriate to ask Alix or Stuart what they feel about all of this, whether it is helpful, or irritating? I would add a suggestion to make a massive amount of money in one day. Open the pub and a huge marquee in the car park on STREET FAIR day.

Fri 23 Jan 2015, 16:20

I see they are advertising a Valentines special dinner.
Perhaps it would be good if there were a lot of local bookings for this to show support and it could be a good get together for those who would like to see this historic pub remain

Fri 23 Jan 2015, 15:35

Andrew positive idea to start this thread
From my business background I feel the Bull needs first to define its market & then satisfy it
If it wants to charge the current prices then I feel it needs to invest in & retain a quality chef and return to the 'Suzanne quality' to compete with the likes of the Crown at Enstone
If it doesn't want to go this route then it needs to serve family food at a sensible price
My view at the moment it that it is falling between two stools & not satisfying either market and this has resulted in the drop in trade which is a common theme of the other thread

Fri 23 Jan 2015, 15:22

I feel hesitant to contribute to this as I know people may well disagree, but I want to help (if this is helping) and this is my opinion. I'm not an expert and I'm sure some/ all of these have been attempted in any case but here goes. . . . .
1. Family pub or not? I know us parents bring along some cumbersome and noisy baggage but we're quite a large proportion of the market. If so perhaps develop that with kids eat free, they don't need a huge bowl of deluxe food I'm astonished by the kids meals some places serve. I'm not saying turn it into a crèche by any means, but in other local pubs we've experienced a really good balance of discreetly welcoming families without ruining the ambiance for others.
2. Business club: If all the facilities aren't fully utilised a drop-in members room/ area which people could use for work with hi-speed wifi, meeting tables with table service hot drinks/ sandwiches.
3. Simple, honest and consistently high quality food.
4. Themed food nights: Steak night, pie night, bangers and mash.
5. Events: lunch, local walk and a free pint token for after.
6. Sports: show big events with appropriate menus, six nations coming up. . ..

Fri 23 Jan 2015, 14:42 (last edited on Fri 23 Jan 2015, 14:46)

In a spirit of being constructive, in the face of many people's concerns about the possible loss of the Bull Inn, how about using this thread as a place to make suggestions for (a) improving the Bull and (b) promoting it? Lots of us would like to see Alix and Stuart make a success of it (or someone else, if they don't want to try further) and not have to resort to losing the Bull forever through a change of use.

Five ideas to start the ball rolling:

1. Put home-printed flyers on the windscreens of cars in the station car park, inviting commuters to pop in after a hard day's work and get a £5 discount on a meal for two, say

2. Start Twitter and Facebook feeds to advertise latest offers, events and so on, and make connections with the various Cotswolds-focused promotional Twitter accounts

3. Have some special events which reference the history of the building - the Bull dates back to the 17th century at least, and was mentioned in a list of inns in 1789. How about: Waterloo day in June for the bicentenary, with a themed meal. The pub was here at the time - were there any local Waterloo veterans who might have gone there? Shouldn't be too hard to come up with something and send round a press release to get local press interest

4. Advertise 'bring the family' days - pubs such as the Bull can seem offputting to people with small children - get in some cheap high chairs (or borrow them) and advertise some family-friendly days to get past that.

5. The owners could sign up to Tripadvisor and when people post reviews there, respond to them (either to apologise for problems or thank people for good feedback) - lots of other proprietors do this, and it shows the owners listen and are welcoming