Call on Government to hold a referendum on water ownership

Sat 16 May, 21:19 (last edited on Sat 16 May, 21:23)

Hi Alice, 

I too believe that public ownership would be preferable to a private monopoly, your post would seem to suggest that I am not in agreement. I have watched the “Dirty Business” programmes and concur with its conclusions. More power to Fergal Sharkey’s elbow!

Sat 16 May, 17:43

I'm afraid Philip it appears very difficult to prove they are pouring raw sewage into the rivers because somewhere along the last 30 years we allowed them to self regulate and they just deny any wrongdoing.   We would have to set up a properly funded regulatory service again at a considerable cost.  If you watch the Dirty Business programmes you will understand how the residual regulatory authority became a part of the problem.

The Government announced the existence of a new river swimming area in the Thames on the same day that the Evenlode Catchment Partnership found that the EColi population upstream of a discharge pipe at Hanborough was 533 and downstream was 41,967.  This is a public health crisis and residents and visitors should be warned not to go in the water.  I've noticed that young people do go into the river during Wilderness.  That is downstream of the Charlbury discharge pipe.  Since we know how dangerous it is we have to try and stop them don't we?

Lots of people think that making a private monopoly into a public monopoly is a very good thing.  

Thu 14 May, 18:42

Couldn't agree more Glena!

Wed 13 May, 14:12

It is necessary if the government are using the excuse of long and expensive legal action to not do anything. It needs to be treated as a public crisis.

Wed 13 May, 13:57

Is that really necessary? We all know that Thames Water is effectively bankrupt. I don't recall that it required an Act of Parliament to take LNER back into public ownership when it went bust. Most people accept that replacing a public monopoly with a private one is a thoroughly bad idea. Stop the bonuses and start jailing the management (for short periods) for the illegal pollution incidents over which they have presided.

Wed 13 May, 11:57

Recently I received a long email from the government saying that it was not possible to nationalise the water industry without years of legal wrangling and court cases. This seemed so awful, given what they have done (and why should they get a penny back ??) that I spoke to a family member who is a judge. He said that it was right that the government would not be able to do that but that Parliament could.

I was amazed and didn't realise what the difference between government and Parliament actually was and what it meant in practice. If Parliament decided that there was a national emergency (which there is---surely water is fundamental ?) they can suspend laws that government would have to follow and enact what they felt was needed for the public good.

Sounds incredible but he is a very eminent judge.

Tue 12 May, 22:01 (last edited on Wed 13 May, 10:03)

If you want to understand more about the issues here, especially the history and 'how we got here', do listen to 'Rinsed' on R4 - the 15 minute slot at 1.45 or on BBC Sounds.  So far (am up to Episode 5) it's an excellent explanation but takes some concentration!

It also features Prof Dieter Helm, quoted in Anne Miller's post.  He is more than just an 'ordinary' professor - if there is such a thing as an 'ordinary' Oxford prof!  He also chaired the government's Natural Capital Committee from 2012-2020, which included a range of experts & academics from various fields - and thus speaks with great authority.  He is also a former member of the Cotswolds Fly Fishers so must be ok!

It really is quite staggering how the water companies have been allowed to accumulate huge debts while paying out such huge sums to 'investors'.  I have some sympathy for the present government as the problem is not of their creation - and they have so much else to sort out too - but that's what government is for, isn't it? I'll stop there, need to listen to more episodes!

Wed 6 May, 12:58

Anyone else getting fed up with clearly predefined wording "further and faster" for example

Tue 5 May, 18:24 (last edited on Tue 5 May, 18:42)

Extract from Sean Woodcock response to my letter below`;

"I will continue to push for Government colleagues to go further and faster in ensuring billpayers are receiving the value of money they deserve after years of mismanagement.

Whilst I strongly support the actions taken in the Water (Special Measures) Act 2025, I am of the opinion that the Government should go further by stopping companies from paying any dividends until infrastructure investment is delivered. We should impose penalties that reflect the true scale of environmental harm, and we should force rapid restructuring of companies that fail basic standards. Furthermore, as with COVID fraud, we should get billpayers at least some of their money back."

I'm pleased that Mr. Woodcock is not going to support the deal on the table.  Would you invest in a company that was prevented from making dividends?  Who will suffer from the imposition of penalties?  The Govt. penalise TW who recover the penalty cost from their customers.  That seems particularly harsh on us who will have to pay for the penalty, the repair and the dividend. How will they penalise TW if performance targets imposed a year ago will be individually renegotiated – either suspended or “significantly modified” and if TW continue to self-monitor their performance?

At the time the Conservative Party privatised water services in 1989 - they were hopelessly underfunded in local Government, had they been properly funded the story might be different.  At that time,  I understand the Co-op group made a bid to run the service - that would have been more logical than a private sector monopoly essential service.  Another suggestion made at the Q&A session on "Dirty Water" was for local people.  That would be more accountable, taking back control, being responsible, etc.

My brother tells me that you can buy a ton of water for £40.  What else is as cheap as that?

Tue 5 May, 09:10

Sean Woodcock has signed the open letter to the Environment Minister asking her to reject the deal between Thames Water and it's creditors. The deal would allow Thames Water to pollute without penalty until 2030. Whilst this is a good sign, our MP and our Government are still assuming a private ownership model is the way forward. The Government recently published a 'White Paper' explaining it's position on water ownership. They have not included any details on what public ownership could look like, or what the costs would be. The paper assumes that private ownership is the way forward. I think we all need to be asking our MP to reject this and to ask the Government to fully assess what public ownership would look like and what it would cost.  Or if you believe public ownership is just the best way forward, tell him so loudly and often!

Thu 30 Apr, 18:49

I have been keeping an eye on the petition, and it was good to see that it passed 100,000 signatures today, which means that it will be "considered for debate in Parliament" (whatever that means). Seeing that it reached this target in less than a month, I think it would be great to see it reach 500,000 or more before it runs out of time on 1st October. But how to recoup the £85bn that has been given back to shareholders?  

Wed 29 Apr, 15:28 (last edited on Wed 29 Apr, 15:32)

In case anyone has not read this, just posting this extract from respected economist (and local resident) Prof Dieter Helm:

"To try to justify what is going on, the government resorted to the slogan of claiming that it is a “market-led process”. This reflects either a profound ignorance of what a market is, or a deliberate deception (or both). In a market, bidders are invited to the table, and alternatives compared. The Special Administration Regime (SAR) is a market-led process......The scale of the Thames hole is truly awesome, and much deeper because of the lack of action by the government and OFWAT. Repeatedly, the government has tried to see off Special Administration, with the result that the driving force is the interests of the existing bondholders and especially those who want the option to get out with a profit in 2030.

.....The complexity is all part of how really good distressed-debt investors play their cards. The game is pretty obvious – play long, get the government deep into the hole and make it more and more politically difficult to get out, so that the investors win out. The less the government understands and the more in public it trots out the rubbish about a market-led process, the better for these investors. They are very smart people, and much smarter than the government or OFWAT at these sorts of “negotiations”.

It appears these investors are winning. The problem for the government – and possibly for them too – is that it does nothing to solve the underlying problems. Thames has yet to even start seriously on a “turnaround programme”. Being let off fines and having a relaxed timetable for improvements means that the company is going to inflict its poor levels of service on customers and on the environment for several years to come. The prime investors are not in it for the long term. It is not their style and they explicitly want to position to get out in less than 50 months’ time."

Sun 26 Apr, 13:08

I interviewed an environmental journalist a few years ago about her then-new book, "Water Always Wins". It's definitely worth a read and following Erica's work.

https://ericagies.com

Fri 24 Apr, 17:31

Professor Sir Dieter Helm sets out clearly the need for the Government to stop pretending that a market based solution will sort out Thames Water and calls for the company to be placed under special administration.   We can't live without clean water.

https://dieterhelm.co.uk/publications/the-thames-water-market-led-solution/

Fri 24 Apr, 10:17

Following the meeting at Shipton Under Wychwood last night with WASP I am putting the link to this petition at the top of this conversation. Please sign if you care about the future of our water industry and our rivers,

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/762640

Thu 23 Apr, 11:09 (last edited on Thu 23 Apr, 11:11)

Ofwat's Board is split - urge them to make the right decision about Thames Water. 

https://weownit.org.uk/act-now/ofwats-board-is-split-urge-them-to-make-the-right-decision-about-thames-water

And look forward to seeing everyone at Shipton UW tonight !

https://www.charlbury.info/events/10825

Wed 15 Apr, 20:45

Yes Ian, I got an email confirming that he had signed the open letter.  I also got a longer letter which was a bit more positive than the sad response that Rosemary received.  My problem is that I don't think this problem will ever be sorted out until it is taken out of private ownership.  We are viewed by them as fixed, long-term, cash cows with no choice rather than people dependent on clean, safe water.  In the long-term it will cost us less to let them walk away.

Wed 15 Apr, 17:03

The 'We Own It' campaign has borne fruit: I emailed Shaun Woodcock and received a very speedy and detailed reply in which he confirmed that he was signing the open letter to Ofwat and the Environment Secretary. 

His email also made the point very strongly that water companies should not be able to pay dividends while receiving assistance from taxpayers and that there is a case for reclaiming some of the profits made from crippling the companies with debt.

Mon 13 Apr, 16:15

The last thing I saw on this was FT 2nd April 2026 – if you can access it. It is the creditors that are attempting to continue funding TW – they provided the company with £3bn in emergency funding last year at 9.75% interest rate which is expected to cost about £800mn in interest total. TW have said they will run out of money again in October this year and the creditors (including US hedge funds Elliott Management & Silver Point) have offered an additional £6.55bn of debt and £3.35bn of equity in October. The debt will be offered at about 6%. TW’s debt pile is given at £20bn.

The offer made by the creditors is to take a 30% write-down on their debt, and for a second tranche of more junior creditors to lose all their cash. This will have to be tested in the High Court. They want to commit to fixing issues that cause breaches rather than paying a fine. Pollution, leakage and other performance targets imposed a year ago will be individually renegotiated – either suspended or “significantly modified”.

Critics are pointing to the removal of accountability and giving the company a regulatory holiday that will leave some infrastructure projects delayed for years. Customers are facing a 37% increase in bills by 2030, not including inflationary increases and TW will have the right to raise prices further if it can find the supply chain to deliver work. What does this mean? More contracting out?

The link below that Anne posted on Tue 7 Apr “NO to Thames Water” is asking our MP to sign the open letter urging Ofwat and Environment Secretary Emma Reynolds to reject the creditor’s last-ditch deal which will probably bring the company in special measures/administration.  

Mon 13 Apr, 09:51

I would appreciate advice on the one thing we should be asking our MP to do about this potential finance deal - e.g. ask him what he's going to do to ensure pollution isn't worse as a result, but I'd like to be as specific as possible. Any advice from others who are closer to the details? Thanks 

Mon 13 Apr, 00:07 (last edited on Mon 13 Apr, 00:09)

And just to make the point even clearer, here are the results of the E. coli testing that we did with Alice last Friday: on the left is upstream and on the right is downstream, as I hardly need to say! each dot on the grid represents a bacterial colony. the location was a stream just adjacent to Hanborough STW, not in Charlbury.

Sat 11 Apr, 13:00

Thank you Lucy for your clear letter.  I will write to confirm my agreement with the content.

As the Government intends to allow untreated sewage to be discharged into our rivers for the next 4 years with no sanction then maybe we need to take steps to protect ourselves from all open waterways? We are not alone - we need to twin ourselves with the poor Chilean residents whose water supply, rivers, the lot were sold by the dictator of the time Pinochet, close friend of Mrs T and the Chicago Boys.  You must all remember Milton Friedman.  They now find that the government and agribusiness work together at great cost to the local population.  

I took this picture yesterday on a tributary of the Evenlode.  Local businesses are busy promoting Charlbury as a tourist destination.  Are they happy with this, how will it welcome people to the Cotswolds?  Somebody tell them that more of the same will not remedy 30 years of failure and extraction.

Fri 10 Apr, 09:40 (last edited on Sat 11 Apr, 09:53)

Rod, that is a jaw-dropping fact about our being the only country in the world allegedly to have privatised our water supply industry, and I agree with your comparison with Grenfell….both these cases are shocking and shameful reminders of what the government thinks about what the the people of this country deserve.

This is part of the government’s ridiculously feeble statement in response to a campaign seeking to nationalise the water companies:

“……. Some campaigners have called for nationalisation of the water industry or a move to not for profit public ownership. However, the Government does not believe that nationalisation is the answer. The reality is that it would take many years to unpick the current ownership model, would be extremely complex, and would likely result in prolonged legal challenges, with years spent in the courts rather than fixing the problems people rightly care about.

During that period, billions of pounds of vital private investment needed to repair leaking pipes, upgrade infrastructure, and improve environmental performance would be put at risk or delayed. Nationalisation would also create a significant hole in the public finances, diverting funding away from key public priorities such as hospitals and schools, without delivering faster or better outcomes for customers or the environment…..”

Thu 9 Apr, 22:58

Thanks Anne. It's brilliant to hear there's so much going on already.

Clearly, the more of us who raise this with Sean Woodcock, the better. I've drafted a letter that I'll be sending to him below. This addresses the urgent issue of the current deal that's being brokered and asks…

Long post - click to read full text

Thu 9 Apr, 21:36

Lucy, I totally endorse what Rod says about supporting WASP: they do a fantastic job so join us at New Beaconsfield Hall on Thursday 23rd April to explore how we can best help, and also to learn more about how the ECP are working to improve the situation locally. 

In a nutshell as part of our 'on the ground' actions we are working with local landowners to design and install measures to 'slow the flow' and reduce pollution from farming sources from adding to the problems. At the same time, we are deploying our high tech kit to take 15 minute samples up and down stream of Hanborough STW over the next few months, accompanied by a detailed citizen scientist study of the water quality in the stream that takes the outflow form the STW, measuring E. coli and river flies to establish the impacts over time. We see this as providing independent and rigorous data to support the expressions of concern that were highlighted in Dirty Business. We have a number of committed citizen scientist volunteers in the catchment who are undertaking this on a weekly basis: so there really is a lot going on 'behind the scenes' as well as the obvious campaigning and the imperative of continuing to lobby our MP to engage with us on this and support our call for it to be brought into public ownership.  I invited Sean Woodcock to join us on 23rd, but he declined but has offered to come out on another date to see what we are doing, so I shall be holding him to that!

If you want to come along on 23rd April just register (free) on Eventbrite www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/dirty-business-qa-with-wasp-tickets-1986007331390?aff=oddtdtcreator

Thu 9 Apr, 20:50 (last edited on Thu 9 Apr, 20:53)

It's not just sewage of course but a cocktail of 'stuff' that goes into the rivers from a number of sources.  But we are apparently the only country in the world to have privatised our water supply industry - and then (like Grenfell) not just to have failed utterly to ensure it's properly regulated but to have allowed it to regulate itself!  Am desperately trying not to be party political here, but given where we have got to, re-nationalisation is probably the only realistic solution – though sorting the problems will take years and a great deal of cash.

If you want a 'you don't know what you've got till it's gone' moment, watch Attenborough's first 'Secret Garden' - about a river in Oxfordshire, no less. And weep! Not sure where the site is exactly – I suspect on the Cherwell - but I'll bet there's no sewage works upstream from it.  I’ve lived next to the Evenlode for (unbelievably) the last 12 years and have watched its gradual decline – but all is far from lost.  Last year for instance, we had a gathering of male chub here shortly before the breeding season (along with a large carp) – never knew they did that!  They were well fed for the task ahead…

Some readers might recall my slogan of CUTE! for Clean Up The Evenlode!  Never really got beyond that but Lucy,  Flora has got in ahead of me re WASP - see https://www.windrushwasp.org - if you want a local, more obviously campaigning group - the people behind and portrayed in the C4 prog 'Dirty Business'.  I remain in awe at their expertise and even more, at their tenacity.  Though don't underestimate the worth of the ECP and many others doing serious practical work as well.  Both are needed.

Please sign this petition – and encourage others to do so.  It may be currently overshadowed by madness elsewhere but it’s just so, so wrong…..

Thu 9 Apr, 18:29

Thanks Flora - that's great. Can we just turn up or do we need to book? Is ther a webpage or similar you could share?

Thu 9 Apr, 11:13

Following the showing of the series Dirty Business  on C4, at 7.30-9.00 pm Thursday 23 April at New Beaconsfield Hall in Shipton-u-W the Evenlode Catchment Partnership is hosting a Q&A session with members of WASP (Windrush Against Sewage Pollution)

Everyone is welcome to attend and ask questions about how we can protect our rivers.

Thu 9 Apr, 09:49

Training for new volunteers on river water testing is arranged for tomorrow afternoon - Friday 10th April 13:30-16:30.  I will be going to get my training and I'm happy to take up to 3 other new volunteers in the car to the test site.  Message me directly if you want to join us.

The meet-up location for this Friday's training has had to be changed.  There has been a significant discharge of untreated waste from Hanborough Sewage Treatment Works so we are having to go upstream for safety reasons.  

I'm sure we all agree that this is disgusting and Anne invites us to express our horror by sending a standard letter to our MP asking him not to allow the creditors of Thames Water to discharge untreated sewage into rivers & sea without any sanction for 4 years.  The company is worth nothing today as Feargal Sharkey keeps telling us on our TV's.  It is a mountain of debt and a crumbling, inadequate infrastructure.   In case you missed the link it is here again.  

https://weownit.org.uk/act-now/the-thames-water-creditors-are-closing-in-on-a-deal-urge-your-mp-to-stop-them. ;

Thu 9 Apr, 03:57

Thank you Anne.

To me, selling off our public utilities was akin to someone knocking on your door and offering to sell you your car that stood on your driveway: Thatcher basically sold off something that we as a nation already owned! It therefore follows that renationalisation will cost us nothing, as we will simply be taking back control of what is rightfully ours.

How to reclaim those billions that were given away to the shareholders, though? That is not so easy. 

Signed and shared. 

Wed 8 Apr, 21:23 (last edited on Wed 8 Apr, 21:38)

Thanks so much for sharing Anne!

 We should all be incredibly angry about this. If you're not, watch 'Dirty Business' on Chanel 4. Our rivers are filthy already and the fact our Government is even contemplating allowing it to get worse rather than immediately taking action to improve it is ludicrous.

Do you know of any coordinated local campaign on water quality? I'm aware of the Evenlode Catchment Partnership but I'm thinking more about co-ordinated mass letter writing to our MP etc? 

Wed 8 Apr, 16:21

I have signed the petition and e-mailed our MP, the least I can do to try and change the Evenlode from an open sewer back to a beautiful river. Thank you for your guidance about simple actions we can take.

Tue 7 Apr, 21:06

Happy to support these calls: I never understood how it was possible to make a profit from utilities like water, energy and so on and the water scandal shows that it isn't, unless you strip assents and burden organisations with debt.

We [should] own it!

Tue 7 Apr, 19:13

This morning, the Financial Times reported that Thames Water is about to agree a deal with OFWAT (the water regulator).

If this deal goes ahead, Thames Water will be able to dump sewage freely until 2030.

We've drafted an open letter to Ofwat and the Environment Secretary, urging them to reject the deal.

Can you take 2 mins to email our MP asking him to sign this open letter?

NO to Thames Water - email your MP

Tue 7 Apr, 19:09

Referendum for water! Please sign.

The government has said we can't take our water industry out of the hands of the private owners who have made such a mess of it. Owners who have extracted over £85 billion from our bills in exchange for putting in nothing, while loading companies with debt they did not need.

According to our government, we have to keep playing their game and paying for it and bail the companies out when they fail.

The government has told NGOs they can't even talk about it because it is not on the table, for reasons that have been shown to be untrue.

That cannot be right, so it is time to shine a bright light on the water scandal.

Hold a referendum to bring the water industry into public ownership

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/762640

Either before or after reading the rest, please sign, share, and ask your friends to share, and ask their friends to share, and so on.