Charlbury Deli & Cafe / shareholders

Fri 27 Feb, 17:39 (last edited on Sat 28 Feb, 08:43)

I'll leave it to Rod, if he chooses, to respond about your suggestion, Helen, of a "brain-storming session, open to all".  We intend as Corner House trustees to hold another public meeting ourselves in the next few weeks or months, at which I'm sure that the future of (or after) the Deli will figure largely, including some of the imaginative comments so far offered in this thread.  But we feel that the next move is for the Deli itself to hold such a meeting if it wishes, and so we are holding back on our own plans to do so.

As for whether such an enterprise can ever be profitable, Hans, we are confident that it is entirely possible to find a way forward that is profitable for a tenant of ours.  (Profitable in the sense of paying its way .. and its staff .. and having a modest surplus to pass on to charity.)

Fri 27 Feb, 14:24

Can someone describe why he outfit is not turning a profit? Notwidthstanding that as far as I understand it it would be impossible to be profitable in the Corner house?

Thu 26 Feb, 09:34

After a friend advised me about all the news about Charlbury Deli on the Forum I read through.  I did like the suggestion concerning the Deli being in the front of the building.   IF another director can be found would there be any chance of ‘combining in some way’ with Corner Stone, the room is so light & cheerful.  It is a difficult situation since the Deli moved from Sheep Street & Bell & Bull have changed the dynamic in Charlbury, plus parking issues.  A brain storming session open to all?  Many locals find some prices expensive - some cheaper choices?
As you all say it would be such a loss if the Deli closed, my late son loved it.

Wed 25 Feb, 18:32 (last edited on Wed 25 Feb, 18:35)

Me again folks, sorry!  No surprise there – but I’ll try to make this my last post, at least until we have some actual news.  Useful to have had different views expressed though.  To respond…

 I understand Miles’s pov, I really do.  And might agree if the C D & C didn’t already exist – you wouldn’t start it now as a limited company.  But something has to be done with it – and Tony, it can’t start to make a profit again or change its business model if there are no directors – cart before the horse.  

There will always be more deserving causes – these days, where do you start??  (Try Dirty Business below for something local and national).  But I don’t see trying to maintain both a service and a number of jobs for local people as somehow undeserving….

 And that’s also to miss the point at para 6. in my long post below – that the Deli & Café could become much more than just a business but one actively supporting a community asset, bringing more life to the town centre as well as providing local employment.  Which a business run for private profit couldn't. 

Thank you Richard (as a past Chair) - spot on –  I’ve been calling for a ‘dream team’ for ages!  And the number of ‘likes’ to Nicolette’s post I hope has been noticed elsewhere (we’ve improved the signage btw!).  For now, let’s just say I certainly haven’t given up hope.  But people, we need to bring this to a conclusion very soon – so don’t hang about if you’re interested or it’ll be a Joni Mitchell….

Wed 25 Feb, 14:15

The Deli & Cafe has been profitable in the past and can be profitable again. There are particular challenges right now – some common to all hospitality businesses, some specific to Charlbury, some to the new Corner House location – but none are insuperable.

A small, focused team of directors, with tight financial control and a determination to focus on the basics, could turn it around. I could easily name four or five Charlbury people, mostly of working age, who together would make a success of it. Whether they would want to is a different matter!

Tue 24 Feb, 19:34

But the fundamental problem remains that the Deli was losing money in the previous location and continues to lose money in the new one. Unless someone can come up with a new business model that means it trades at a profit or at least break even then new Directors are not the answer

Tue 24 Feb, 15:50

As someone who has lived in charlbury for 40 years, is a shareholder of The Deli and whose husband was for many years Financial Director of it I  really do disagree with Miles Walkden

 The Bell and The Bull are assets to the town and very popular with the more affluent visitors but one has to be seriously rich to eat there and many locals and visitors who come by train, bus  ,on cycles or on foot etc need a pleasant, friendly place to get simple but delicious meals at reasonable prices. They also being outsiders need to find such a place easily and the signage tothe Deli is not that clear. The Deli needs to be in the centre of the town and of attractive appearance i.e. The 2 front downstairs rooms in the Corner House.with access via the entrance on Market STreet.. Having more space than at present it would make more profit which would go to the COrner House: at the moment it is in a pokey dark place and at most times it is over crowded  and the wonderful staff do a wonderful job in the tiny kitchen but there is a severe limit the range of things they can sell  in such limited space. The opposite was the case when at the same time I dropped into THe Corner Stone which together with the adjacent jigsaw room  was spacious and completely empty appart from the volunteer on duty..With more space and if it put up its prices slightly the Deli would be a huge success and people would be more likely to volunteer to run it :at the moment it is a poisoned chalice. 

Which brings us toThe Corner Stone and its excellent work which is sorely sadly in these troubled times :but the local users of it would easily find  the Bring and Take part of it if it  moved to the jigsaw room , the contents of which could be moved upstairs and the weekly distribution of food boxes which used to take place in the room now occupied by The Deli could either remain wherever it is now or perhaps to The Quaker Meeting House (THe Corner House was once Quaker owned. )

Tue 24 Feb, 11:53 (last edited on Tue 24 Feb, 11:55)

Meanwhile the Deli and Cafe is still open, staff are friendly and welcoming and doing their best to serve the community and staying positive. So please do continue to support the Deli despite all the uncertainty while we wait to see what the future holds!

Tue 24 Feb, 11:42 (last edited on Tue 24 Feb, 11:44)

Hi Charlie. No need to be angry. You make a good point that is very much part of the debate needed. 

I do disagree that we should only have local people run businesses in a town. Nice as it would be, I suspect no town has ever done this. It feels unsustainable. If we want the town to survive as a town we need to encourage new business. If we want a village, we’ll, that’s another debate. 

It is easy for people like me, who are not prepared or able to do the work, to wish for a lovely comunity run business to continue. However, the truth is a hugh amount of money has been spent that could have gone into other local projects. A huge amount of work has been done by some talented and dedicated people, which could be channeled into other projects. As it is, many people have had sleepless nights over many years worrying about how to keep The Deli going. 
 
It feels unfair to pass this on, again, to a new person/ people, with all the, not insignificant, baggage of directorship.

Is it  time to redirect the money, time, effort, worry, and joy, excitement, good will, and community spirit, into something new?

Tue 24 Feb, 11:13

OK Miles, challenge accepted!

1.      I’m not aware of any concerted effort to ‘attract new businesses’ to the town.  Rather the opposite – the WODC planners have consistently failed to apply their own policies effectively and have allowed or acquiesced in several changes of use of commercial premises eg…

Long post - click to read full text

Tue 24 Feb, 11:11 (last edited on Tue 24 Feb, 11:12)

Emily – first, it’s not a job! 

 Directors have certain statutory duties, see here:  https://www.gov.uk/guidance/being-a-company-director

 Beyond that, as volunteers, it’s what you make of it.  My aim, on taking over as chair, was to gather a few people, ideally with relevant experience, who might then lead in individual areas – finance, marketing, communications, personnel, premises (me!) etc.  Sadly not to be.  Our managers run things day-to-day – but need that kind of support.

 We now have an advisory group, which is fine as far as it goes, but the business needs people willing to take responsibility if it’s to survive – and prosper, which it certainly could with the right leadership.   As I’ve said before, I would not have put the time and energy into it that I have if I hadn’t seen the great potential for both the business and the Corner House as a community facility.

Charlbury, once again, ball in your court!

Tue 24 Feb, 11:09

I think Charlie & Miles both make valid points & each have Charlbury’s best interests at heart

Having spent many years helping companies deal with problems it seems to me that the Deli’s problems go beyond just needing new Directors

The fact that the Deli has been loss making for quite some time suggest the basic business model is the problem, which isn’t a quick fix, and also exposes any new Director to some risk

It seems to me that if the Deli is to continue it needs someone with retail hospitality experience to review & revamp the fundamental business approach, to ensure a profitable trading model that doesn’t require continual funding.

Tue 24 Feb, 10:36

Miles Walkden's post made me both upset and very angry. He seems to be saying that we should (in the title of a Top 10 song from the 1960s) "cast your fate to the wind". I have had to metaphorically bite my lip before making a reply.

The Deli and Cafe provides a wonderful service for those of us who want to use a Charlbury business that is "by the people, for the people", and also who do not want to use either of the what I shall crudely refer to as "expensively-kept" businesses in the town that are certainly not Charlbury-based, and that in my personal view have changed Charlbury for the worse. 

I know many others feel the same (in varying degrees), and I shall do whatever I can to help our Deli and Cafe to survive. I just wish I had the skills and wherewithal to become a Director.

Mon 23 Feb, 19:24

Just wondering. Does the Old Bank have a coffee provision in plan, or is it only going to be a Delicatessen?

Mon 23 Feb, 18:42 (last edited on Mon 23 Feb, 18:48)

As a share holder, and long time supporter of The Deli, I believe it is time (perhaps long past time) that we let it go. 

The idea, I always believed, was to provide the people of Charlbury with a service it wasn’t getting from private business. In recent years we have had cafes and restaurants open and there appears to be more on the way. 

We are all very keen to insist on calling Charlbury a Town in part to attract and encourage business to come here. Have we come to the point where we are, by keeping the Deli open, competing against the businesses we have attracted?

Would it be fair to say that the running of the deli appears to have been a financial nightmare for those incredibly hard working people involved. Is now the time to ask why we are concidering putting more time, money, and effort into something that could be seen to be working against the town’s interest?

Mon 23 Feb, 17:18

Thank you Rod for making this so clear. We have just over a month to find a director for the Deli or the Deli and  cafe closes. In which case debates on rents, legal status, the wishes of the donor and the like become irrelevant. Such a shame to lose what has been such a great asset for the town over the years.  
As Rod says

Charlbury, the ball really is in your court. 

Mon 23 Feb, 15:13

Perhaps we all could be given an idea of what being a Director of the Deli would entail?

Hours, responsibilities, duties.

Mon 23 Feb, 10:01

Sorry but….  This thread was not intended as a general discussion about the Corner House (or indeed philosophy!). 

Rather, it is about the imminent demise of a community owned business that has been serving this community for 35 years.  Not to mention the loss of several jobs for local people….

It’s important though for the factual position to be correctly stated:

 First, the C D & C does not have a lease of any part of the CH.  It has an ‘Occupancy Agreement’ of a small part of it. A licence for those with a legal bent.

Second, the fee agreed for the first year is very similar to the net rent we were paying on Old Bank House.  That is still an expense however which affects the viability of the business in the same way any other overhead does.  It is unrelated to our ‘initial set up costs’.  Those were largely paid for with contributions from others.  And everything the CH trustees paid for will still be there whether or not the C D & C is!

Third, the fee after the first year is based on a percentage of ‘all sales generated’ with a monthly minimum yet to be agreed.  Opinions differ greatly on how that might affect the business but as things stand, we’re unlikely to find out.

I hope that sets the record straight.

One more thing (per Columbo!).  I am not of course the only person who has invested time and energy into the business, far from it.  Unbelievably, there have been 36 directors – all voluntary, no payment – over those 35 years.  And recently we’ve had help from several other volunteers – and of course our lovely staff, whose jobs are now at stake. In asking for new director(s) to step up, I cannot emphasise that enough. 

Charlbury, the ball really is in your court…..

Sun 22 Feb, 16:06 (last edited on Mon 23 Feb, 11:33)

Alex, we don't charge a 'commercial' rent to any of the users of the Corner House.  Commercial use (meaning activity primarily or solely for private profit) is not allowed anyway under the terms of the original bequest, and we remain answerable to the Charity Commissioners for the current use of the building, to ensure that it is for the benefit of the town.  Our different users (long-term and one-off) pay varying amounts -- some still for historical reasons uneconomically nugatory -- intended simply to cover their share of the cost of our running the building.

So Emily is right, that rental costs are not a factor in the Deli's current financial precarity.  We agreed a lease with them involving a proportion of turnover to ensure that they were not unduly burdened, and we further reduced that to allow for their initial set-up costs.  They, or any successor organisation, should be able to flourish financially in the Corner House .. and it remains our earnest hope that they will.

[edited in response to Rod's subsequent comments (above):  the 'lease' is indeed an 'occupancy agreement', (I was simply trying to use non-technical language) and the amount is linked to turnover, with a minimum payment to ensure that our basic costs are covered -- a minimum which has been set at a particularly low level initially to help offset the Deli's set-up costs]

Sun 22 Feb, 10:02 (last edited on Sun 22 Feb, 13:18)

I believe those who lease space from the CH pay a relatively cheap rent. I don’t think the rent the Deli pays has led to its poor winter sales. However, the CH doesn’t run on fairy dust. It has energy bills to pay plus any upkeep costs. I think it’s brilliant it is finally being used and not sat empty as it has for many years. 

Sun 22 Feb, 06:38

The Corner House was in essence 'given' to the people of Charlbury for their own recreational purposes. Any community run or charitable based user of room(s) in the CH should be charged a notional peppercorn rent not at commercial levels. Is this the case with all CH users (cafe & deli included)?

Sat 21 Feb, 18:37

Rod - determination and persistence are admirable qualities, so very important in life and business. 

Thank you for all you have done - you have shown these with the Deli.

The hospitality market isn't an easy market to be in, however good the intention.  

 It is very important to have a purpose. 

A useful question to ask is: "What would a wise person do here?" 

Sat 21 Feb, 16:17

As this thread suggests, there are active discussions in various quarters of the town about the future of (or after) the Deli & Café; with a consensus that one way or another something of the sort needs to continue.

The Corner House trustees are some of those who are actively involved in the talks, albeit with limitations on how much we can do to be directly helpful.  We were very pleased to welcome the Deli into the Corner House last year:  the community provision that they offer, now that it's on a not-for-profit basis, fits in very well with our remit to maximise the Corner House's benefit to the town;  and our premises (though not ideal) have considerable potential, especially when the warmer weather comes, as a gathering place to enjoy drinks & light meals.

While we are not in a position, practically or legally, to run a shop or café ourselves, we are keen to continue to make our premises available for the Deli or any similar successor-enterprise.  It will benefit our building, and more importantly the town as a whole, for it to succeed;  and so we shall continue actively involved in any discussions .. and are optimistic that a way forward will be found in the coming months.

Sat 21 Feb, 15:09

Interesting to read the debate about the technicalities of a community benefit society but it rather misses the point that unless someone steps up to become a director by the 31 March when Rod  steps down the Deli will close. So for those who want a community benefit society how about stepping up to ensure it can happen?

Fri 20 Feb, 14:44

Just to update, as per our News items, I will be standing down as a director for personal reasons as from 31/03.  So far no-one has offered to replace me.  A limited company cannot function without a director so if that remains the case, the present company will have to cease trading from that date - and it urgently needs to improve its finances.  

Sales through the winter months have been disappointing, with the company continuing to trade at a loss - but in the expectation that it would 'turn the corner' as we move into spring with the use of the wonderful CH terrace and garden.  The company might then convert to a Community Benefit Society.  

I've devoted a great deal of time and energy to the company over the last 18 months and really do need now to put myself and family first.  Anyone interested in becoming a director and helping the company to recover do please contact me for an informal discussion at rod@charlburydeli.cafe.. You don't need to be a shareholder.

Thu 12 Feb, 13:04

If nothing else, the posts from Liz and George illustrate the need for a public meeting where the issues can be fully explained, questions raised - and from which hopefully a new community based team would arise.

Janet is of course correct, as per the news item.  A more detailed email has now been sent twice to the existing shareholders, apologies for the poor formats (does anyone understand how Mailchimp works?!) but at least the second is more easily readable.

Charlbury, it really will be up to you if you want this facility to continue - and if it does, for any new team to decide how and in what form.

Thu 12 Feb, 11:42

The Charlbury Deli may be forced to close at the end of March. Read News Item for full details.

Wed 11 Feb, 20:28

Community benefit societies have members who receive interest on the capital they put in at the start of the project. They do not own shares as there are none. So they are not shareholders and do not receive dividends. 

Wed 11 Feb, 18:14

George, I stand corrected! But it's different.  For anyone interested, there's a useful introduction here:  https://cwmpas.coop/what-is-a-community-benefit-society

Wed 11 Feb, 15:03

Quick correction, Rod. When it comes to Community Benefit Societies, members are still shareholders. Many thanks. 

Wed 11 Feb, 14:36 (last edited on Wed 11 Feb, 20:24)

Link for reference: https://www.charlbury.info/news/5031

Wed 11 Feb, 14:11 (last edited on Wed 11 Feb, 14:13)

First, please see item in the news section.

And apogies to shareholders for the poorly formatted email I sent earlier.  If you click on 'View this email in your browser'  at the top of the email you should at least be able to read it!  Ironically, kind of reflects its contents.  I'll try to issue a revised version shortly.