Rigging the Vote? (Debate)

Sun 31 Oct 2021, 11:22

Good point Steve but I think the youth voters (18 - 25) would also be dissuaded from getting photo ID and they tend to vote Labour/ Liberal Dem so could have the same effect in areas where those parties poll higher

Sat 30 Oct 2021, 19:02 (last edited on Sat 30 Oct 2021, 19:03)

The evidence is that pensioners are, on the whole, more likely to vote Conservative so if they were to be dissuaded from getting photo ID cards then, maybe, it would be an own goal?

Of course, famously, they were also the group most likely to have voted for Brexit.

Thu 21 Oct 2021, 13:10

Lots of excellent views on here. I will only give a single case-study. 

My elderly neighbour was chatting to me on the pavement the other day. She proudly declared that she had voted Labour in every election since she became eligible at age 21. She has no driving licence and no passport and no computer. When I mentioned the issue of photo-ID, she was appalled. 

I explained about being able to get a Citizen's Card or applying to WODC for a 'voter card'. Her response was "Oh, I can't be doing with all that!"

 Dare I suggest that her case may be replicated up and down the country and, in aggregate, represents a large group of voters being disenfranchised?

Sun 17 Oct 2021, 10:55

I think the voting system certainly needs some modernisation. The fact that one can just turn up at a polling station and give an address with no proof of residence required is bizarre. Untrustworthy people who live in shared accommodation for example could simply harvest polling cards and effectively vote several times…

Sun 10 Oct 2021, 12:18 (last edited on Sun 17 Oct 2021, 11:12)

I'm personally very much opposed to mandatory voting. If somebody cannot be bothered to vote, then just how much thought will have been put into their vote on the day? What's more, I think it very important that we know how engaged people are with politics, and the turn-out is a critical indicator of this factor and the importance that people feel it has with their life. Compulsory voting masks all that. As for the "none of the above" option, then that's already available via spoilt ballots which are reported separately (and I can't imagine the forced re-run with different candidates ever happening, even if it was designed to be desirable).

There have been many regimes that have achieved (or claimed to achieve) almost 100% turnout in votes, but those tend to be the authoritarian ones where this magical figure is used to provide spurious support.

I should also add that where there are votes which people deem to be important to their lives or future then turnout is often high. We have seen that with various referendums where direct, rather than indirect democracy has triggered high figures.

nb. having done a bot of research, the Dutch used to have compulsory voting but abolished it in 1967. Brazil has compulsory voting, but despite that, in 2018 over 20% of registered voters did not vote and polls indicate that the majority of the population now oppose the principle. Greece officially has compulsory voting, and the punishment can involve, in theory, up to one year imprisonment (astonishingly). Perhaps less astonishing is that nobody in Greece has ever been convicted of the offence.

Sat 9 Oct 2021, 23:07

A more important point surely is to have mandatory voting. Along with this every ballot papet should have a, "none of the above" option - if this happend to win another vote would be held in which none of the candidates could stand.

Fri 8 Oct 2021, 17:43

Why would it mean exclusion for people without access to IT?  Steve Jones has already pointed out that, "People without existing photo ID will be able to apply for a free voter card from their local council to use in the polling station."  

Fri 8 Oct 2021, 16:23 (last edited on Fri 8 Oct 2021, 21:59)

The incident you refer to relates to the abuse of postal votes orchestrated by one individual, and it happened 13 years ago in 2008.  He got a 15 month sentence at the time.  Memories are long but it doesn't constitute evidence of voter fraud that requires ID cards.  It wouldn't have been prevented by ID cards.

Where is the evidence that there is a problem that needs to be solved?  What is it really going to achieve?  Income for Party Donors?  Exclusion of people on low incomes with no access to IT? 

Fri 8 Oct 2021, 15:21

I don't see it as an attempt to 'rig the vote'.  People have to use photo ID for numerous services in the UK and we have always needed passports when travelling.  What is wrong with proving who you are when attending a polling station.  The Labour Party expects people to provide photo ID when attending party conferences.  There has been voter fraud in the UK, perpetrated by Tariq Mahmoud in Peterborough. Yes, I'm aware it was abusing the postal vote, but as we do not require proof of identity from the people attending polling stations, how do we know that voter fraud is not taking place?  I'm with Steve Jones on this, I don't see why we don't have a National ID card.

Fri 8 Oct 2021, 10:27 (last edited on Fri 8 Oct 2021, 10:30)

Yes Phil I agree with you - a serious attempt to 'rig the vote'.  

I've just looked up the 2019 electoral fraud data.  There were 595 cases of alleged electoral fraud investigated by the police of which 4 led to a conviction and 2 individuals were given a police caution.  

Reasons for cautions issued being:   1. a candidate used his old address; 2. a voter used his father's vote because he wasn't on the register.  Reasons for convictions: 1.  2 cases of false signatures on a candidates nomination form 2. 1 case of a voter voting twice in a European election - once for himself and once for his son. 3. 1 disrupted the ballot on being told he wasn't on the register.

There is no real voter fraud in this country.  It's the politicians that lie.

When we were part of the EU I thought it would be beneficial to have an ID card because they are used in mainland Europe to travel, work and live in the free market area.  The lorry drivers used them to deliver in the UK as we now understand.  However, now free movement is prevented, I think there is absolutely no reason at all to have an ID card apart from social control.  Stop and search and the like.

Thu 7 Oct 2021, 17:34 (last edited on Thu 7 Oct 2021, 17:41)

"As I understand it Photo ID could only be a driving licence or a passport."

That understanding is not correct. This is what the House of Commons library says on this matter.

"The types of ID required include passports, driving licences, PASS scheme and Blue Badge cards, and some travel passes. People without existing photo ID will be able to apply for a free voter card from their local council to use in the polling station. Research commissioned by the Government found 96% of respondents had suitable photo ID with a recognisable picture."

Whatever the merits or otherwise of this, then I will say that I am one of those in favour of a national identify card which I feel would be of benefit and streamline services. Not, I should say, of the compulsory carrying but, in these days of identity fraud, then something which helps combat that would be extremely useful.

It is also worth noting that requiring photographic voter identity is not exactly rare. As examples, it's required in Germany, Canada, Iceland, Norway and Sweden among others. It is also, incidentally, a requirement in Northern Ireland.

Wed 6 Oct 2021, 10:35

I D Cards . . . ?

We are all unique; we have a date and time of birth; our birth is legally required to be registered and we are issued with a numbered birth certificate (1) that includes a National Health number (2). We are issued with a National Insurance number (3) and if we want to leave our country we have to apply for and be issued with a passport (number 4). Want to learn to drive? Yet another number (5). And I am sure there are more . . . !

Can you imagine how much money could be saved if just ONE unique number was used for all? Fraud cut at a stroke? All records linked together?  Kris

Tue 5 Oct 2021, 19:25

Phil there's a photo id called citizen card which requires a referee and can be used as proof of age etc. I'm not saying you should have such a thing to vote, just that you don't need a passport or driving licence.

Tue 5 Oct 2021, 18:22

Every country in the European Economic Area except Denmark, Iceland and Ireland have national identity cards, it’s about time we had them as well.

Tue 5 Oct 2021, 17:30

The government are attempting to do exactly what the Repugnants are doing in the USA ... suppressing democracy. But do the electorate here care? I fear not ...

Tue 5 Oct 2021, 17:09

Maybe they are thinking of bringing in ID cards by the back door?  Kris

Tue 5 Oct 2021, 14:26

From my reading of Saturday's Guardian (2/10/21) I gather that there are two Bills progressing through Parliament - the Police Bill and the Elections Bill.

The Police Bill would enable police to intervene in a public protest if it "causes serious unease" to local people because of noise. Wow, that's a bit of a harsh regulation! Noise is surely the point of protest!

The Elections Bill proposes that voters at elections should provide photo ID at the polling station. Now. that seems to me to be a serious attempt to 'rig the vote'. As I understand it Photo ID could only be a driving licence or a passport.

I know many people who don't have a driving licence because they can't afford a car and who don't have a passport because they can't afford to travel abroad.

The poorer people who fall into this category are are most likely to vote one way.

And so, if this were to pass into law, it would seem to me to be an abuse of power.        A ruling party enabling its own continuation in power.