Free parking in West Oxfordshire (Debate)

Sun 22 Aug 2021, 10:37

Richard compares Witney to Stroud, Frome, and Totnes for the parking situation.

All 3 have railway stations, Witney and Chipping Norton do not. Totnes has a tiny population, so is not very similar. Stroud is of a similar size, but the Plus Bus scheme allows free buses around town if arriving by rail.

The buses round here are jolly expensive for those without bus passes. The buses are also not very good, except for those on a direct link to Oxford. Witney and CN both need to make themselves attractive to those with cars.

I haven't read the "bible" of free parking that Richard mentions, but notice that it is by an American academic and do not believe that the situation in the UK and the US are similar -- not yet, at least, since we do still have better public transport than those in the US. 

Since I see that one of the main recommendations of the book is "removing the requirements for off-street parking for new development", I am going to take a lot of persuading that this is a suitable benchmark for thinking about parking in the UK.

Sat 21 Aug 2021, 18:59

The case made for charging for parking is partly based on better availability through increased churn of spaces. Increased churn will not happen without enforcement, which will be infrequent in Charlbury at best. Staff appointed initially will be pared back over time and we will be left with the council pocketing the income. Cynical, moi?

Sat 21 Aug 2021, 18:49 (last edited on Sat 21 Aug 2021, 18:52)

“If one wants small, independent shops to carry on existing, then free car parking is what is required.”

That’s not at all the case. Stroud, Frome, and Totnes are pretty much the poster children for independent retail, all roughly the same size as Witney. None has free parking.

Donald Shoup’s book on free parking is pretty much canon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_High_Cost_of_Free_Parking

Sat 21 Aug 2021, 17:52 (last edited on Sat 21 Aug 2021, 17:53)

Kris, Sorry. Don't know the fares. You need to phone a taxi firm to find out.

In my experience part of the problem is finding a firm willing to undertake short journeys which start from Charlbury. 

Easier to find a taxi going from Witney to Finstock than from Finstock to Charlbury, I think. So make sure you ask whatever firm you choose if they would be willing to undertake the Finstock to Charlbury leg.

Charlbury taxi firms are listed here: https://www.charlbury.info/business# but not all of these companies will take on short trips. 

There are quite a few choices in Witney, Chipping Norton and also Woodstock. NB I think 001 taxis in Oxford/Woodstock are now Uber (at least if booked with the Uber app). Not sure if they cover the villages, but other more traditional firms say that they do. Royal Cars also have an app that includes both Witney and Woodstock.

Maybe somebody else can recommend a reliable firm!

Sat 21 Aug 2021, 17:24

If this is going national party-political then it’s definitely one for the Debate section.

Sat 21 Aug 2021, 16:58

Let's be honest Liz, your party has always been anti motorist. I have experience

of living in South West London where local Liberal Democrat controlled council

attempted to sneak in a 400% increase in resident parking permit fees and every year increase parking charges for both parking meters and car parks. More and more people avoid shipping in Kingston town centre because it's too expensive to park and online shopping becomes even more attractive.

Sat 21 Aug 2021, 13:11

Christine, you mention “very expensive taxi ride/s;” please can someone advise the current (Aug 21) expected daytime rate from 1) Witney to Finstock and from 2) Finstock to Charlbury? Thanks, Kris.

Fri 20 Aug 2021, 22:34 (last edited on Fri 20 Aug 2021, 22:34)

Who are the beneficiaries of free parking - the business owners who have their customers attracted in and the customers of those goods and services?  Many of the Council tax payers who subsidise the opportunity cost of keeping valuable town centre land empty for half the day aren’t necessarily either of those beneficiaries.  

I don’t object to paying for parking to visit interesting shops if I choose to drive there.  But I do object to the money being collected by these huge companies with opaque offshore tax arrangements.  The income collected should stay in the locality.

Fri 20 Aug 2021, 11:50

If one wants small, independent shops to carry on existing, then free car parking is what is required.

Yes, out-of-town supermarkets provide free car parking for a limited time period, as do a few of the (increasingly rare) centre-of-town supermarkets. But one only has to look at a place like…

Long post - click to read full text

Fri 20 Aug 2021, 09:41

My thoughts on this are as follows:

The reason for charging to park, is revenue creation for the local government and I find it pretentious to make out that that there is any other intention. To state that it's got anything to do with "saving the planet" is rubbish. (Note that even residents are expected to pay for the right to park their cars.) To have fewer cars travelling to shops will obviously mean less custom and therefore revenue for high street retailers in the likes of Witney. Unless of course, the local government actually uses the revenue from parking to subsidize bus services to villages.  Commuters who use the train, no doubt feel they are paying over the odds for their train travel never mind car parking fees. Let's remember train use is supposed to be encouraged rather than car. The pub, restaurant & hotel staff that work in places such as Woodstock; who drive to work, obviously don't live in Woodstock and probably can't afford to as such honey-pot locations are beyond their limited means, so where does that leave them? Should they be expected to cycle home at midnight or catch a bus that doesn't exist and walk the last half mile to their home because the bus doesn't actually go near enough to their home. I have been to other parts of the country of late and have seen the amount of shop closures in the High Streets. Witney is currently doing far, far better than the vast majority believe me but you only need a couple more of the shops to shut and the domino effect begins. I agree with charging tourists for parking-sure. I agree with Oxford's policy of making parking prohibitively expensive, because we have the choice to use the  park and ride buses. I'm all for less car use and would gladly hop on a bus to Witney, if there was an hourly service. 

Thu 19 Aug 2021, 17:35

I’ve never seen any explanation why literally every other district council in Britain charges for parking, but West Oxfordshire is seemingly so fragile that charging for parking in Witney would result in the imminent implosion of trade and bankruptcy of all shops.

Thu 19 Aug 2021, 17:13

The open air seating areas were to help the struggling hospitality venues accommodate more customers during the C-19 restrictions and beyond. Oxford did the same as well as many other places. I don't think small restaurant/ café/ pub managers/ owners would agree that the idea is 'absolutely ridiculous'...

Thu 19 Aug 2021, 16:18

Witney seems to have shot itself in the foot with the new parking restrictions in the market square (disabled only) and the change of use of parking spaces by the Butter Cross to open air restaurant area. Absolutely ridiculous, IMHO.

Thu 19 Aug 2021, 14:05

So, it would appear that shopping on-line it is then as travelling to Witney is considered reprehensible and there's not exactly a comprehensive set of shops in town.

Thu 19 Aug 2021, 12:37 (last edited on Thu 19 Aug 2021, 12:40)

The point that Mr Bleakley is making is that in places like Woodstock, there is a real issue which needs addressing. It is possible for there to be a charge for on-street parking in parts of the district, and for  residents to pay for a parking permit where needed, while retaining free parking in the car parks that are owned by WODC in Witney and Chipping Norton.  Most towns have that sort of arrangement with supermarkets offering free parking for several hours.

Thu 19 Aug 2021, 11:20

We shop in Witney or chippy because my mother has dementia and needs someone with her, but she also can't walk the distance from her house to the co-op/centre of charlbury and back up the hill. As there's frequently no parking we don't have any other option if we want to give her a change of scenery from being stuck in the house. Shopping local/using the library isn't an option in this case unless we do two car journeys (one to drop her and her "minder" off and another to pick them up) which definitely isn't environmentally friendly.

Thu 19 Aug 2021, 11:15

Thanks Richard never noticed the date that would as you say explain why it doesn't work 

Thu 19 Aug 2021, 10:47

Well, if you want to completely finish off Witney as a shopping location then introducing parking charges is certainly the way forward!

There is probably a fine balance between the cost of driving to Witney (or Chippy) with free parking or going online and paying for delivery, but add parking charges and a significant number of people are likely to abandon Witney (or Chippy) and simply do what they did during lockdown and buy online!

If charges have to be introduced then there absolutely must be enough 2 hr free parking slots available to make people continue to shop 'locally' (by which I mean Witney etc)

Thu 19 Aug 2021, 10:42

Tim: Richard's link was posted over four years ago, so not surprising it is dead now.

As for parking (esp. in Witney and Chippy), I use it as needed for all the reasons others have indicated, and I agree that charging for parking is not likely to change that for those who need it (or save the environment), but I would not mind paying for the privilege simply to cover the costs for the DC.  However, for me it would be essential to have a modern, convenient way to pay (like OXP).  What is a real pain is waiting in queues while people fumble for coins or try to remember their number plate.

Thu 19 Aug 2021, 10:18

Richard clicking on that link you provided comes up with page not found.

Thu 19 Aug 2021, 09:31

A bit naive to think that charging for car parking would save the environment...Though certainly a good political gesture. The only thing that kept people from driving to Witney was that shops were closed because of lockdown. And to say that people should shop locally doesn't seem to take into account that Charlbury has very few shops, a known fact when deciding to move here. For the regular or occasional trip to a bigger supermarket at any distance you need a car or more trips a week with a good bus service. This is because of the way things are, particularly for people living in small villages with no or hardly any shops. I would not welcome having to pay in Witney because it wouldn't really solve any problems.

Wed 18 Aug 2021, 17:59

Indeed, simple......except that WODC's Conservative administration values free parking above everything in spite of having declared a climate emergency! OCC is currently reviewing the parking contract they have with WODC so there may be some changes in future.

Wed 18 Aug 2021, 17:25

The WODC Free parking mantra is outdated. It does not help residents on impacted roads and does not help local businesses as reduces parking churn.  This coupled with the need for WODC to raise necessary funds should be taken into account.  Residents parking schemes are needed coupled with full enforcement, this will benefit both residents on impacted roads and businesses needing the parking churn.  Take Woodstock town centre as an example. Many cars park up early morning for their shifts at hotels, pubs and shops and then do not move their car all day. 

Woodstock town centre - Pay and Display with a few free 30 minute parking slots (30) and residents permits.  Longer stay P&D tickets for the Hensington Car Park particularly if workers want to drive and park up in Woodstock for the duration of their shifts. Full enforcement would then be required. This would solve the parking problem whilst raising money for WODC.  Simple

Thu 2 Feb 2017, 11:00 (last edited on Thu 2 Feb 2017, 11:48)

I see Charlbury is up for review once the centre is finished! Can anyone remind me how many car parking places the new centre will provide and if any are to be lost from the original car parking.

Thu 2 Feb 2017, 10:36

WODC has just published its parking strategy at www.westoxon.gov.uk/news/jan/parking-strategy/ .

Mon 30 Jan 2017, 17:10

Free parking in West Oxfordshire has helped places like Chipping Norton to at least partially counter the pull of major shopping centres, so I would be opposed to moves to curtail it.

What may well be needed is a greater proportion of free spaces to be time limited to deter all-day parkers e.g. rail commuters using Charlbury town centre.

I support the Nine Acres petition and have signed it online. Yellow lines below New Barn Garage will help, but only if enforced.

In any event, a lot of the parking in that area is illegal as The Highway Code states that you should not park on or within 10 metres of a road junction, nor should you park partially or wholly on the pavement (unless signs permit). It is also illegal to park on a road at night facing against the traffic flow.

Tue 17 Jan 2017, 12:37

Thank you Liz, I shall pop down this afternoon.

Tue 17 Jan 2017, 09:31 (last edited on Tue 17 Jan 2017, 09:33)

Pearl it is at the Post Office and online at www.witney-libdems.org.uk
Sorry I didn't get it there till Thursday

Mon 16 Jan 2017, 18:30

I second the survey recommendation, which would provide hard data - without which nothing will happen. It could be carried out by volunteers (we the people).

Mon 16 Jan 2017, 12:19

The October WODC report mentioned by Christine has a tentative conclusion but an associated in depth survey recommendation (extract below), which I suggest Liz (Leffman) asks them to action urgently. Then we will have hard data to use.

9.6.1 It is likely that there is overspill of rail user parking in Charlbury .... It is recommended that a more detailed survey of on-street parking is carried out to identify the volume, location and timing of any potential overspill parking. Options to mitigate the overspill and balance the needs of other users such as local residents can then be considered. OCC would need to be involved in this project

Mon 16 Jan 2017, 11:51

Thank you Elaine was just checking because you didn't have it last Wednesday, I know Liz is a busy lady.

Mon 16 Jan 2017, 11:02

The petition is now at the Post Office

Mon 16 Jan 2017, 10:56

Liz sorry ask but is the petition at PO yet or even on line would be good?

Mon 16 Jan 2017, 10:01

I agree with Andrew - it's not the availability of spaces at the station that is the problem, it's the charges. Now we've gone down the road of handing control of parking to private companies, the chances of removing the parking fee seems unlikely. I'm lucky in that I can walk to the station, but if I couldn't, parking for free in the town, which could save around £900 per year in parking fees, would be a very attractive option.

Mon 16 Jan 2017, 09:59

Regarding parking at the station, I believe the kerfuffle about people being charged even when picking people up off a train has now been solved. However what about the money that the administrating company makes from charging people to park? I would suggest that 60% (minimum) of that money collected should come to a specific fund that is ring-fenced for maintaining Charlbury's roads and pavements.
And yes, I know that not how things work these days ... but it *should* be how things work!

Mon 16 Jan 2017, 09:49

Well, I knew people would have views - this is Charlbury after all! Thank you and keep it coming!

Sun 15 Jan 2017, 08:43

If the station car park were free to use, commuters would have no incentive to invade Dyers Hill, Nine Acres Lane, etc, and indeed more people would perhaps be incentivised to use the trains. But of course the likes of Apcoa wouldn't then have lots of lovely money for bacchanalian feasts or whatever they spend people's parking fees and fines on.

Sun 15 Jan 2017, 08:20

At least Pat you park in a car park space how many lazy people park on the yellow lines making getting in and out of the car park differcult for others

Sat 14 Jan 2017, 21:22

Re the parking in Spendlove- the 60 minute spaces should be the first spaces in the car park. How many of you actually go to the 60 minute slot when popping to the Co-op if there is a space in front of you. I know I am guilty of using a long stay space for 5 minutes.

Sat 14 Jan 2017, 15:33

Another level on the Station Car Park would eliminate some of those parking in the town.

Sat 14 Jan 2017, 12:35 (last edited on Sat 14 Jan 2017, 20:06)

Whilst we are on this subject of parking may I just say pavements in particular should not be parked on as they are mostly narrow and in poor condition and wheelchair users and invalid mobility scooters already find it very difficult. It is extremely dangerous for them to venture into the road which is quite often what they have to do, unfortunately.
Yet another reason why Double yellow lines are needed at bottom of Nineacres Lane.

Sat 14 Jan 2017, 11:25

This topic has expanded from the issue of parking on one corner to the more general question of parking policy in Charlbury. I'd like to expand it further, by suggesting that there might be a holistic approach to the movement of vehicles, cycles, and pedestrians within the town. If unnecessary short car journeys are to be discouraged, then pedestrians and cyclists need to have their journeys made more pleasant and less hazardous. There are, for example, few streets within the central part of Charlbury where there is an adequate pavement on both sides for more than 200 metres or so. There are also places (top of Pooles Lane, parts of Hixet Wood), where there is no pavement at all. This results in a frequent need for pedestrians to cross the road, or to share their space with vehicles. Cars still drive far too fast in Brown's Lane, and almost universally ignore the Stop sign at its lower end. The Enstone crossroads has been the subject of recent comment, but is just one risky crossing-place. I know that there are plans for a 20mph limit in the future, and that the installation of even the most modest of measures costs money: but might we not as a town have an aspiration towards a pedestrian/cyclist-friendly culture, which can be implemented in practical ways as funds permit?

Sat 14 Jan 2017, 11:17

Our vote is for controlled parking, whether through payment or time restrictions. Starting with the Spendlove centre which would be easier to manage. A 2-hour limit should cover medical/shopping use, with permits for people working there. This would exclude all-day parkers including commuters, which is fair enough.
That said, a payment-based system would give more flexibility for people needing more than 2 hours, rising steeply after 4/6 hours to exclude station overflow.
As a model, remember that the Witney carpark, though free has one-hour zones round Waitrose with hefty fines for outstaying your welcome.

Fri 13 Jan 2017, 21:30

Parking charges in Charlbury would be a mistake I think, as they would damage our remaining businesses. There aren't enough shops in Charlbury to make it worth paying say two pounds to park, it will just divert people to Witney.

I think a better solution to commuters dumping cars in the town might be to introduce residents only parking between say 9 and 10 am Monday to Friday on certain streets. That would deter commuters with minimal disruption to visitors. I suspect though that it would be quite expensive to implement and so residents might find themselves having to pay hefty charges for a residents pass.

Witney is a bit of a different case. Charges might encourage those who live in Witney to walk/cycle, but for the many people driving in from villages there is no alternative to driving. More investment in buses would be great, but probably not realistic in the current climate?

Fri 13 Jan 2017, 18:54

I don't drive. I also have a bus pass. So parking in Witney is not a problem. Increase the size and frequency of buses between Witney and Charlbury, and even more people (especially those of us who are retired) would be able to enjoy the pleasure of shopping without the worry of where they will put their car -or how much it will cost to abandon it for a few hours.

Fri 13 Jan 2017, 18:51 (last edited on Sat 14 Jan 2017, 22:08)

Fri 13 Jan 2017, 17:42 (last edited on Fri 13 Jan 2017, 17:44)

Free parking generates revenue for local traders. Fact. Shops in Charlbury, Chipping Norton and Witney all have elevated turnover thanks to free parking. Impose parking charges and footfall (tyrefall?) will go down with the inevitable loss of revenue. Independent shops struggle enough to survive, add a further burden and some will fold.

By all means introduce a time limit, maybe two or three hours, but don't sound the death knoll for small traders by imposing car park charges.

We have given up going to Oxford, the city has an active policy of discouraging motorists. We now spend our money in Charlbury, Chippy and Witney. If car parking charges are introduced in any of these locations they'll lose our business too. I suspect we are not alone in this.

Oh, and we have no problem finding a parking space in Witney. At busy times it may take a couple of circuits of the car park but we have never failed to find a slot.

Fri 13 Jan 2017, 17:31

How different people's experiences are! I've never failed to find a space in Witney, even on a Saturday, and I much prefer shopping there to Oxford where shops are scattered all over the place. I think one just needs to know where to look.

The buses to Witney are now so infrequent from Charlbury, & none at all from various villages & towns, that introducing a parking charge would surely affect trade.

I'm strongly in favour of free parking, and notice from the WODC parking report (October 2016) that I am in a very clear majority in terms of their recent survey: www.westoxon.gov.uk/media/1501047/West-Oxfordshire-Parking-Strategy-Draft-report.pdf (p. 52).

And, yes, short term parking is needed as a priority in Charlbury; but so also is long-term parking, especially for visitors and those with restricted mobility, but who don't qualify for a blue badge.

Fri 13 Jan 2017, 16:55

Oxford has a residents' parking scheme, with the need for householders to buy time-limited guest permits. These are effectively a tax on having people come to visit you. I objected when we lived in Headington, and will continue to do so should such a scheme ever be mooted for Charlbury. Harrumph!

Fri 13 Jan 2017, 16:40

In each case I guess we need to look at what the free parking achieves in that particular town; and what we might want different.

For Witney, WODC's rationale is that free parking promotes the town's commercial success. That might perhaps have been the case while Witney was "on the…

Long post - click to read full text

Fri 13 Jan 2017, 16:05

I think parking charges in Witney would be a disaster. I do agree that sometimes it can take a while to find a space at Woolgate, but it's not impossible. I think it might discourage people from shopping in the Town Centre if they had to pay, which would be bad for all the businesses. I like Philippa's suggestion of limiting parking for non-permit holders to three hours in Charlbury. I work in Headington where it used to be possible to park for up to 30 minutes, which was long enough to grab a few bits or go to the bank at lunchtime. Since they stopped that, I have stopped going there and end up going to a supermarket instead.

Fri 13 Jan 2017, 14:49

Woodstock has had several discussions in the past about charging for car parking but the residents and businesses (of which one was my Step-Mum's) said it would be devastating for the Town centre. They have kept the free parking for up to two hours I believe. The difference here seems fewer businesses and of course we have the station. Parking charges, I believe, would be bad for business and bad for residents, particularly when they have visitors. Perhaps a three hour waiting scheme combined with allocated parking permits for residents who can purchase a number of guest parking permits for the year may work. I've seen that done elsewhere and it was a fairer system than charging everyone and it may stop the rail commuters from parking where they shouldn't.

Fri 13 Jan 2017, 14:24

I am not proposing anything specific - I am opening this up for general discussion and people's views. We have a problem - we need to find a solution. And by the way there is a problem in Witney because at busy times it is virtually impossible to find a parking space, as there is such generous free parking there. Parking will get more difficult in Witney too, as there is a plan to close the long term car park by the hospital and build on it.

Fri 13 Jan 2017, 14:01

But Witney already has three hour free parking, and marvellous it is! I suspect the all day dump isn't a problem there as it doesn't have the train line, so are we actually proposing fees for those towns and villages along the train line?

Fri 13 Jan 2017, 13:24

It would apply to the larger settlements, ie: Witney, Chipping Norton, Charlbury and possibly places like Eynsham and Long Hanborough, but not to villages where there are no problems with people parking from outside.

Fri 13 Jan 2017, 13:08

Where would this relate to?

Fri 13 Jan 2017, 12:23 (last edited on Fri 13 Jan 2017, 12:26)

I recently dared to suggest in a meeting at WODC that it might be time to review the free parking policy (to the great consternation of some of the other councillors). Most districts in the country allow 30 minutes or so of free parking, after which a fee is payable. Not a big fee, but enough to make it impossible for people to dump their cars and leave them all day. Yes, this would require policing, and there is a cost associated with that, and we would probably have to have a residents' parking scheme. The Lib Dem group have challenged the council over free parking in the past , but the argument for it has always been that it promotes business in the district. I'd be interested to know what others think about this - has the time come to look at this again? If people generally think a review is needed, then I will take this further with the council.