Planning Application by the Community Centre (Debate)

Thu 4 May 2023, 08:23 (last edited on Thu 4 May 2023, 08:25)

Stephen

over the years there have been attempts. There was a move to amalgamate the Gifford Trust and the Trust which runs Nine acres. That didn't get off the ground.  What's needed is to revitalise the Nine Acres Management Committee by including the Community Centre. And for all the organisations represented on it to take NAMC seriously and present their plans to it. 

Wed 3 May 2023, 12:50

Thank you Stephen, I think we all appreciate your wise counsel. I am sure that this will happen in the near future.

Wed 3 May 2023, 09:00

I have followed this thread with interest. What I get from it at this stage is that there are several sport orientated organisations sharing the same space. Each organisation serves a different interest of the Charlbury Community. Each should/could be complementary to the other. So to get the best out new developments for the Charlbury Community why do they not come together and discuss the development of facilities?

Tue 2 May 2023, 14:42

I must correct something that I said at the beginning of this thread. There was an email from a trustee of TGT in January alerting the FSC to an intension to make planning application for the gym extension. Therefore, what I said was wrong. Apologies.

Mon 1 May 2023, 22:38

I await the committee's proposal. Just remember, Geoff Holmberg and I were the tiddlywinks Champions  in the World Championships held in the Farmers (AKA The Three Horseshoes) sometime in the '90s.

Mon 1 May 2023, 14:05

I expect Polo and Croquet would prove popular? 😂

Mon 1 May 2023, 13:52 (last edited on Mon 1 May 2023, 13:52)

Well, Nick, we did make the offer. There was a brief take-up from grass volleyball but that only lasted a few weeks. Then there was field hockey but they couldn't arrange a first fixture. We are open to requests. What do you suggest?

Sun 30 Apr 2023, 20:53

good news Carl

Sun 30 Apr 2023, 18:24

Nick,

We have 3 darts teams playing in Chippy, Eynsham and Witney leagues as well as an Aunt Sally team and working on getting a team into the local pool league. That’s three other sports right there. Good point made earlier though about getting all the other local sports groups/ clubs involved in a competition. I’ll raise that with the committee also, could be good fun!

Sun 30 Apr 2023, 18:06

Thanks John for adding the opening hours.

I had missed the Community/Sports entry -- but there are now 2 entries on the Sports page: one for the Football Club as well as one for the Football and Sports Club. The Football Club one doesn't include  the opening hours, but the FSC one now does. It is quite confusing, especially because clicking on "football" on the (nice!) FCS site gives a 404 error! 

Sun 30 Apr 2023, 17:20

Phil

It was not in the least bit snide but I was drawing attention to how stuck in the past the club is. Its title is the Football AND SPORTS Club. We were told  when they were fundraising that the club would "reach out" (I remember the words) to other sports. I've seen precious little of that.

Sun 30 Apr 2023, 17:16

Christine, the opening hours have always been on the club website, but admittedly only on the 'Contact Us' page.  I have now added them in a couple of other places and in the menu bar, so really no need to go via any convoluted route from charlbury.info to website to Facebook in future.

More than happy to submit a request that club details appear in the Community/Social section in addition to the Retail/Food & Drink section, although it is already in the Community/Sports section as well, so the Admins might consider it overkill to be appearing in all three places!

Sun 30 Apr 2023, 17:14

Thank you for your comments Christine. We will certainly discuss how we can better advertise the club, it’s facilities and opening hours.

Sun 30 Apr 2023, 15:57

I'm pleased that an entry for FSC is now on charlbury.info. Thank you, John Munro. 

But it seems symptomatic that it is there under Business/Food and drink/retail, rather than Community/Town facilities which is where it would be most easily spotted by new residents, visitors to the town, or by long-term residents using the Community Centre for a variety of sports and social facilities.

Or perhaps FSC could go under Community/Social if Town facilities seems too strong (although it surely is a town facility, given what Phil Morgan says about it being a not-for-profit organisation).

The business side of the charlbury.info website is not very reliable -- eg. Larcum's, still there under Business/Food and Drink/Other (as I've just discovered!) -- and it would be better to place the entry under Community if at all possible. 

In addition, the opening hours of FSC could be easier to find -- it's rather hard work at present. You first have to go from the charlbury.info page to FSC's own website, then the Facebook page, and even then it's not very clear how up-to-date the information is. I realise that this has all been done in a hurry, but perhaps the FSC Committee could consider at its next meeting what needs to be included on the web-page (and where on the charlbury.info website it needs to be placed).

Sun 30 Apr 2023, 14:14

Nick, your last sentence was a little bit snide. Most locals refer to it as the 'Football Club'.

The point that we should return to is that the Club is a 'not-for-profit organisation'.

We pay the staff but nobody else takes a penny. We are all volunteers.

When I said that the application could harm our business, it means that it could harm the grant aid that we offer to the user groups of Nine Acres.

While fully supporting the need for a dedicated gym facility, we must oppose its location.

Sun 30 Apr 2023, 13:43

The football club paying towards the upkeep of the football pitches seem somewhat obligatory.

Sun 30 Apr 2023, 13:42

Can I suggest an item for the next committee meeting of the FSC? 

Set aside 50 quid. Go to the Trophy shop on Corn Street in Witney and buy a cup. Get it engraved the "Charlbury Football and Sports Club Trophy". Invite all the sports clubs in Charlbury to take part in a Triathlon ( I'd suggest table tennis, bowls and tiddlywinks.) Have the grand ( tiddlywinks) final on the patio outside the FSC. That should get people mixed up well.

Sun 30 Apr 2023, 10:00

Carl, I'm not anti the FSC and I'm very pleased to see it putting money into the renewal of the pitches. A very good cause. However, your freudian slip in calling it " the Football Club" is telling.

Sun 30 Apr 2023, 09:45 (last edited on Sun 30 Apr 2023, 09:48)

Comparing the Football Club to the achievements of the community centre is slightly unfair. The club has only really been operating in full since the full lifting of Covid restrictions early last year. It’s still in its infancy and speaking as the membership secretary, I can confirm that every month we discuss in our committee meeting helping other organisations on nine acres and the Charlbury Community as a whole. We’ve recently agreed to provide substantial assistance to the repair of the football pitches.

As a business, we are a not for profit organisation and we therefore donate surplus funds to others. Phil has posted on this forum before, inviting local organisation to apply for grants. Increase in revenue benefits the wider community, not the Football Club.

The club has played a major part in getting everyone in the town vaccinated for Covid. I believe it is still used in such a capacity for older people. That is a service provided to the community by the club assisting the surgery that all of us committee members are very proud of.

The club has seen a good use from youngsters in the town as we are the only venue that offers pool and darts. It keeps these kids off the streets and some have even found hidden talents and joined some of the sports teams at the club! We have one particular lad who dabbled into darts at the club and is now hoping to start trialing for the county youth team very soon, another proud achievement!

Objections and disagreements are a healthy process of democracy but dialogue and consultation amongst neighbours is a common courtesy. 

Sun 30 Apr 2023, 07:44

Well said, Nick. A sports club objecting to a gym being built is frankly absurd.

Sat 29 Apr 2023, 20:55

John, my comment wasn't intended personally and since you're not on the committee, it's clearly not your responsibility. It does however seem extraordinary to me  that no one on the committee has asked you to put in the link before now.

I would ask the FSC to consider its name and its mission. Is it just " like a pub" as the Secretary maintains or should it have a wider role, particularly as it is now in receipt of public money indirectly from all the people of Charlbury.

Sat 29 Apr 2023, 19:50 (last edited on Sat 29 Apr 2023, 20:32)

Nick, I do rather object to your comment about a rush today to get a link to the club website - I was simply responding to a comment from Christine that the club aren't visible on the Charlbury Forum.   I am not directly connected to the club or its committee, but simply help out with updating their website and Facebook page.

Out of interest, would you have been equally cynical if there was no reaction to Christine's observation?

Sat 29 Apr 2023, 19:30 (last edited on Sat 29 Apr 2023, 19:33)

I cannot see how building the gym is going to adversely affect the business of the Football and Sports Club.  The vast majority of people who use it are regulars and they know where it is! I agree with Malcolm that this could be an opportunity to increase membership of the Football and Sports Club if properly managed and new people are encouraged to use it. I’ve just seen Nick’s contribution and couldn’t agree more!

Sat 29 Apr 2023, 19:21

Christine has scratched the surface of a much bigger point.  Let's compare the two organisations. The Community Centre has made a huge contribution to the health and wellbeing of the people of Charlbury and beyond. It has changed many peoples lives. Its success has been due to its receptiveness to…

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Sat 29 Apr 2023, 17:16

Yeah I’ve been in the clubhouse. This isn’t really going to affect custom to it and you have the opportunity to grow membership through increased opportunity. It’ll happen, so may as well embrace it.

Sat 29 Apr 2023, 16:35

Malcolm, you clearly don't know much of the history of this. Not your fault if you haven't lived here long.

I suspect that you haven't been into the clubhouse. It is like a pub - beer, Sky tv, darts pool, Aunt Sally, etc.

So, that is our business and, in our view, it will be damaged if this development is approved.

If you want to discuss it face to face, please contact me via this site.

Sat 29 Apr 2023, 16:33

Christine, you make a good point and I have just submitted details to the Charlbury. Info administrators so that they can be added to the Business Section.

The club already has its own website: 

https://charlburytownfsc.co.uk/ and Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/CharlburyTownFootball

where facilities, events, opening times and membership details are available.

Sat 29 Apr 2023, 08:45

While discussing the Football and Sports Club, can someone please tell me where on Charlbury.info one can find details of how to join the Club and also the opening hours. I am sure that they would get more members if it was more obvious how to join, the opening hours and also the facilities and the cost of joining. I have looked under the various Community headings for this information and failed to find it. Perhaps my fault, but more information would certainly help in attracting new members.

Sat 29 Apr 2023, 08:02

But it’s not unnecessary, it’s very much wanted by a large number of people within the community. You’d be denying people of a brilliant community space, seemingly out of nothing but spite.

Sat 29 Apr 2023, 07:38

The 'Community Hall' management have treated the Football & Sports Club -  a very old & truly Charlbury Community Club - very shabbily since they knocked down the old club to build the current hall. The F&SC are to be applauded for having built their new Club.

It would be a shame if the site they now enjoy is spoiled by unnecessary expansion of the Hall.

Fri 28 Apr 2023, 23:29 (last edited on Sat 29 Apr 2023, 05:21)

Stephen, the “gym” is a rowing machine and a treadmill in a space barely bigger than a dining room. There are people with garage set ups who are better equipped. This is the reason myself and many others have to go elsewhere to use one. 

The floors of the Morris Room wouldn’t be able to withstand the type of heavy weights any functioning gym would require, nor would it be large enough. Also what happens when it’s required for other things? Where would a squat rack or cable cross over move to? If there were adequate space at Spendlove I’m sure it would be more viable as a permanent base, if they are supportive of creating changing and showering facilities. However, I doubt it could coexist in there alongside commercial office based businesses.

It will get many more members with this move. I can’t understand the mindset which blocks more amenities in the community that people will use daily.

Fri 28 Apr 2023, 20:58 (last edited on Fri 28 Apr 2023, 20:59)

I am a member of the Gym and do not support this application to put basically a box with the same facilities that are already provided inside

I have responded in writing to the Community Centre plans some weeks ago but have had no response, and I am disappointed that my ideas have not apparently been considered. I think the business case to fund and run this equivalent gym facility is not proven. One idea to establish the viability is for the community centre to rent some of the vacant space in the adjacent Spendlove Centre for say a year. If this worked then a longer term arrangement would be ask the Corner House for a long term cheaper lease for the upstairs Morris Room which as far as I can see has no active bookings and start to establish more efficient use of the town’s facilities.

Fri 28 Apr 2023, 18:12

A fair point, Wendy.

However it seems Phil has learnt this info quite late, despite the Community Centre having the info on display for months, so it wasn’t kept hidden.

Fri 28 Apr 2023, 17:57

Perhaps if there had been dialogue between  those wanting the extension there wouldn't be this issue now?

Fri 28 Apr 2023, 17:18 (last edited on Fri 28 Apr 2023, 17:30)

It’s nothing like that at all. You’re taking the classic NIMBY attitude when the reverse would be much more beneficial to the business. A gym and a sports social club are inherently linked and complimentary. If the truck was a NHS breast screening one and had big signs saying PHARMACY THIS WAY you’d have a comparable situation, one which I doubt the pharmacy would object to.

As I say, you’re really missing a trick if you don’t look at this as an opportunity to bring in custom, rather than a threat. Fag packet maths and being very conservative :

Gym is going to need 150-200 people to be economically viable

If you gave a free month membership and 100 people turned up once to spend a fiver, you’ve £500 in the till.

If 15% of those decided to come back to watch a game after working out once a month and spent £10 each time, you’ve £1,800.

Some will take full membership, some will spend way more.

Fri 28 Apr 2023, 17:17

Malcolm, I think you miss the point. The Football Club is a business and has to trade in order to survive. In order to do this, it needs to be visible.

The proposed building would be like permanently parking a removal lorry outside the Pharmacy!

Thank you Liz for the contact name at Planning. Always good to address a person rather than an organisation.

Fri 28 Apr 2023, 17:15 (last edited on Fri 28 Apr 2023, 17:17)

To add:

A far more beneficial approach would be to engage the Community Centre, offer 1-3 months free membership of the sports clubs to all gym members and then you have an opportunity to bring in additional revenue when you show them how good the sports club is. Maybe even negotiate a special rate for your own members, who are largely the same demographic as the gym is looking to sign up.

In short, work with them and see the opportunities rather than be combative and competitive when there’s no need to be.

Fri 28 Apr 2023, 16:50 (last edited on Fri 28 Apr 2023, 17:09)

I can’t really think of any valid objections you may have, Phil. It’s not going to block the access the the club, as there’s a clear route around.

Provides a much needed community service, as the current “gym” isn’t fit for use.

Gives players of the football club a usable gym to keep match fit.

Exposes the club to members of the gym, who may be unaware of its existence previously, potentially recruiting new members/players/patrons.

Means the considerable number of people who want to use a gym in Charlbury don’t need to jump in their vehicles doing 40 min+ round trips to the nearest alternative.

Provides an outlet for teens, an oft overlooked demographic, to get them into health and fitness early.

Provides an outlet for Charlbury’s many 60+ to stay fit and healthy.

Provides a home for other activities, like yoga.

Where’s the negatives?

Fri 28 Apr 2023, 16:25 (last edited on Fri 28 Apr 2023, 16:27)

Looking at the application on the WODC planning website, there are a number of objections already registered that make that point.  Planning officers will accept late representations, and it is better to go to them direct. The  officer who is handling this application is Peter Morgan,  peter.morgan@westoxon.gov.uk

Fri 28 Apr 2023, 13:47

I am Secretary of the Football and Sports Club. On behalf of club's Management Committee, I wish to ask you to register your opposition to this application. If you haven't seen it, go to WODC (Planning). The ref is 23/00749/FUL

If it were to be approved, the building would completely obscure our clubhouse from the public space of the Spendlove car park and damage our business.

Before the application appeared on the WODC website, the Club had no notification or consultation - nobody even asked our opinion!

Apparently the window for objections to WODC has now closed, and so, all we can do is lobby our local representatives. These are Liz Leffman and Andy Graham.

PS: sorry to both for the grief this may cause.