"We should regulate SUVs out of existence" (Debate)

Wed 13 Dec 2023, 16:32 (last edited on Wed 13 Dec 2023, 21:26)

Zooming out a bit to the original question. Should we ban SUVs? I'd say no.

Instead let's look beyond just cars (and the niche debate of fossil fuel vs electric). It's an issue of delivering mobility for everyone in a sustainable and fair way. 

For a lot of people that means better public transport, of which busses are the cheapest and quickest to develop. Where I am at present about a third of the busses are electric. The local tram system has been built in a decade. Loads of people use it daily - including us. Let's push for better public transport and use it when we can.

Bike lanes and routes can be quite cheap to develop, pavements can be widened. More people will tend to cycle and walk.     

If you have an older, efficient petrol car, and you don't drive it much. That's great! Lots of people don't want a new car, or have other calls on their money.

Many in the community are less mobile. They may be dependent on taxis - make minicabs a priority for conversion to electric. And yes some public chargers in different places would be welcome, particularly for people who can't charge at home. 

If you give a neighbour a lift - that's brilliant too, it takes a car off the road. You might use the train, and that's an equally good approach. 

We are fortunate in having local shops, restaurants, pubs, doctors and dentists on our doorstep, let's use them if we can. 

Maybe get food delivered? Or work with our brilliant local food organisations? 

Agree to not fly? Completely agree. One of the reasons we've been driving across Europe is because we don't fly if we can absolutely avoid it. 

Finally let's not demonise the "other" amongst us. There's no single right answer, and people will have individual circumstances and restrictions, some of which will not always be visible. 

Wed 13 Dec 2023, 09:28

Given the other thread has been locked, I’d like to strongly object to Malcolm’s bizarre rant about SUVs here. What an obnoxious, nasty load of tripe it is (see below). Who on earth do you think you are to decide who is and isn’t welcome here? Blaming a pub that does far more this community in a single day than his constant wittering and moaning ever will. There are far more who love what they are doing than the constant whinge from a select few regular posters on this forum with far too much time on their hands, they’re just not as vocal because they have actual lives to live.

“The Sort who are infesting the New Bull and all the available legal and illegal parking possibilities (many downright unsafe) with their climate busting and child-killing carboniferous juggernauts of conspicuous cock-waving consumption are unwelcome. Suggestion is that this chorus of complaint is a bye-blow of The Chipping Norton Set. So go "set" somewhere else and stop your predasitory depredations messing up ordinary people and the sort of respectful and considerate visitors we'd like to welcome to share a time with us - in acceptable numbers and in balance with our communal resources needed for those who reside in our Town and find available and affordable space so, for example, children might want to stay or return later when mature seeking to find a community to raise the next generation.”

Sun 10 Dec 2023, 21:39 (last edited on Sun 10 Dec 2023, 21:42)

Driving in and through France and Northern Europe, the number of charging stations is much greater than the UK , with many more fast charging options of 350 kw , for a prompt charge. The fast charging stations that promote 350 kw here in the UK often ( when working) regularly operate at well below 100kw. With insufficient locations, poor performance and variable cost from 31p to 79 p per KW there is a huge variation in cost.

With the low capacity of the Zoe, would a charge from say 20 % to full be in excess of 1 hr per charge?  Long Journeys here in the uk and with a poor infrastructure ( more so in the North and Scotland especially ) there needs to be a huge increase to provide the current demand . 

The Redbridge park and ride and the Banbury Gateway are excellent charge points-, Charlbury really needs to be pro- active in providing an affordable and future proof facility for the continuation of the growth and in line with the Government targets. 

My old Diesel SUV would cover 650 miles on a full tank , and refilled in less than 4 mins.  

Sun 10 Dec 2023, 14:00 (last edited on Sun 10 Dec 2023, 14:08)

We typically get about 230 miles range on a full battery but tend to drive quite gently and generally with the "eco" button on. 

I drove myself and three pretty large blokes to a conference in the lake district in September with lots of luggage and no problems.

Last week we drove 1,116 miles from southern France to Basque region and back, the only two differences over our old petrol car was an extra 15 minutes at the coffee stops (four stops per journey each way) and I was driving about 10 mph slower than I used to (electric range does drop if you drive at French speed limit of 130kph).

On a separate point - the motorway was in good condition, but the journey cost €210 in toll fees. 

Sun 10 Dec 2023, 13:21

Interesting posts from two Renault Zoe owners. However good the Zoe may be, it's not really a family car for four plus holiday luggage, although fine for local commuting. BTW neither of you state its range on a full charge.

The French government and its citizens have always supported its domestic motor industry, whereas we gave up on British Layaround ages ago. 

Be careful what you wish for in calling for SUV extinction, SUVs and large 4x4s are a large part of what remains of the British based motor industry. Lots of exports and jobs at stake.

An SUV or similar with good ground clearance, rugged suspension and high profile tyres is an understandable choice for Oxfordshire's atrocious roads, poorly maintained by the previous administration and now neglected by the current one in favour of massive expenditure on excessive 20mph limits everywhere, not just town centres and residential side roads (which I support).

Sat 9 Dec 2023, 15:26 (last edited on Sat 9 Dec 2023, 16:16)

We also have a Zoë, which we bought nearly new for half price four months ago.

We've been managing over (sometimes well over) 4 miles per KWh. Given a litre of petrol holds the equivalent energy of 10KWh that means we are achieving 40 miles per litre equivalent.

With 4.5 litres in a UK gallon that works out at roughly a minimum of 180 mpg in day to day use. 

The Zoe is admittedly heavier than our previous (city) car at 1,468kg. But battery technology is advancing rapidly, becoming cheaper, more energy dense and faster to charge, so this will change.

But I do agree how bulky less efficient electric cars appear more popular in the UK. Here (temporarily) in France I observe cheaper, lighter and more efficient electric vehicles are much more common.

Partly that because the French government places a high emphasis on sustainability - and I think very large cars are viewed differently by many people here, perhaps even seen as a bit vulgar and wasteful.

Against that background the smaller and more efficient Renault Twingo (electric) is a popular choice. Costing from 21,000 € new but buyers can then get a grant of 7,000 € which brings the costs down by about a third. A new (and cheaper) version is planned for 2026 that will offer 6.2 miles/KWh (279 mpg)

The Dacia Spring seems to be in every urban charging bay, weighs 970kg and carries four people. It costs 18,000 € new (but in practice again after subsidies is about 13,600 € ). 

However neither of these (and other examples) are currently available in the UK. 

Sat 9 Dec 2023, 14:15

Interesting comment Philip, because I reckon our little Electric Renault Zoe is one of the smallest cars in Charlbury. And at 7.5p per Kwh on a charge between 11-30pm to 5-30am from Octopus Energy which is a 100% renewable produced electricity company, it is also very cheap to fuel up. 

Fri 8 Dec 2023, 16:54

Unfortunately, for the foreseeable future, electric vehicles will only exacerbate the size problem. EVs with reasonable range can only be built on larger platforms (chassis as we used to know them) A case in point is Ford ceasing production of the Fiesta.

BTW a modest size SUV such as a VW Tiguan diesel 4x4 Automatic can average 45mpg+

Fri 8 Dec 2023, 16:35

Interesting:

Paris mayor plans to triple SUV parking tariffs to cut air pollution

Sun 4 Jun 2023, 09:58

SUV’s - in time are evolving and will become electric vehicles and as Charlbury is a rural town, with a mass of pot holes and exceptionally poor road surfaces , they can accommodate the lack of any urgency of the lacklustre efforts to provide an acceptable surface. 

Sun 21 May 2023, 18:59

If you need a large volume capacity to carry lots of kids or luggage or to double up as a builders' van - what was wrong with the MPV "People carriers" of the 80' and 90'?????

How often do people *need* 4-wheel drive in this country? Less than 1% work in agriculture per se (and when do horticulturists bounce over rough fields in their daily regime - adding another 1% of the workforce. I've worked on farms and in horticulture in my youth...  and in my youthful experience the very most one needs is a simple "differential lock" on one axle to stop wheels spinning... and tyre chains do for any occasional snow we get with climate heating).

SUVs should be banned - I suppose for a limited production but then if you need cross country you should have a Land Rover, Shogun, Jeep whatever - and I'm not aware of many SUVs that have 7 seats like my trusty old SEAT Alhambra with it 90bhp 1.9 diesel we got 48 mpg out of for over 20 years before it deteriorated too much to rehabilitate - and by then we didn't need a roomy semi-van!

The MPV design was a simple light monocoque body shell with estate car suspension components -eg some extra strong springs and dampers. A Sports Utility Vehicle is some wannabe outdoorsman (with a little ****?) with a lifestyle fantasy.

What's happened to the useful large bodied, modest performance, frugal MPV? Not seen a new one for years.

Who said Homo sapiens was evolved a "wise man"?????

Sun 23 Apr 2023, 19:20 (last edited on Sun 23 Apr 2023, 19:21)

Tim, the argument in the article refers to SUVs (large and heavy?) and it is the damage to the climate through increased emissions rather than the road network that is the concern. Also, there is the fact that SUVs are killing more people when involved in accidents. Andrew kindly added a link below to the full article but here are some quotes:

"Given that SUVs consume one-fifth more oil than medium-sized cars, they now emit about three times more carbon than the UK, per the International Energy Agency, which also says that they “have helped keep transport emissions rising “at an annual average rate of nearly 1.7 per cent from 1990 to 2021, faster than any other end-use sector”."

Interestingly electric SUVs are not the answer (according to the article):

"Even electric SUVs won’t do much to prevent dangerous climate change because they require outsized batteries, given their bulk and relative inefficiency. And manufacturing a car battery consumes as much energy as making the e-car itself."

It concludes:

"If we let SUVs keep fouling the planet, we might as well admit there’s no sacrifice we’re willing to make for the climate."

As an aside, if we are looking for the reason why the roads seem particularly bad right now (potholegate!) then, as has been pointed out before on the forum, I would say this is what austerity looks like. There has been consistent underfunding for 13 years in all our public services and massively reduced central government funding for road maintenance. Sadly, it is what "we" voted for and even some Conservatives are now saying that cutting so hard and so fast was a mistake.

Sun 23 Apr 2023, 14:14

Hello Graham, did you pop next door to weigh my car when I wasn’t looking?!

Sun 23 Apr 2023, 07:12

Yes, let's have a fair system of vehicle excise duty.  One based on emissions, weight and distance travelled.  Ring fence it to the road network, development and maintenance and let the user pay.  I would be happy with that.

Then we could all stop arguing about it and wouldn't that be nice.

Sat 22 Apr 2023, 23:12

Interesting point Graham. Matthew, was the original argument in the FT about banning heavier cars or larger cars? Should we be looking at banning all electric cars then for the increased damage that these heavier cars do to the roads? 

Another point that I had not considered and that an engineer told me about was that due to the increased weight of electric cars multi story car parks cant take the additional weight of electric cars. So do we need to reduce the number of spaces and then build more car parks? 

If they are looking to reduce access to credit to purchase cars then that will make buying an electric car even more difficult.

Challenging problems.    

Sat 22 Apr 2023, 20:38

FYI,  a petrol Nissan Micra weighs in from  .9 tonne compared to the equivalent electric Nissan Leaf comes in from 1.5 to 1.7 tonne. They still use the same roads but the electric one is not liable to the vehicle excise duty, but the more of these heavy cars will lead to more road deteration, including pot holes.

Mon 17 Apr 2023, 18:17

If you don’t get a puncture on the way to Woodstock, and need to zig zag across the road dodging the pot holes . Personally, I am not able to drive out of Charlbury in any direction without concentrating on preventing my full electric car from getting a puncture and cracking the aluminium wheel ! 
a diversion recently took me through a Ford ,  very worried due to the wading depth of a low vehicle , and the chance of mixing water with electricity!!!!
a good case for a Range Rover ?  If decided that I wanted one . Not retired , have to travel , and the trains !!!  That’s another subject 

Mon 17 Apr 2023, 15:55

SUVs are good for the economy because they cost more, more VAT, and they use much more fuel, more fuel tax. 

However they are not so good for the environment or the roads. I don't see the point in spending twice as much buying it and having running costs that are twice as high compared to a normal car, that does exactly the same job. SUVs do have an advantage should you need to cross a muddy field or a deep ford. But cars should not be there anyway.

I feel very smug when I see an SUV driving my 60mpg car, knowing that I can cover the ground faster if I want to (easier to overtake), and having a much easier time when I arrive at my destination, as parking spaces in this country seem to be designed for the width of a Ford Anglia. 

Sat 15 Apr 2023, 11:42

I can't wait for my Range Rover V8!?

Sat 8 Apr 2023, 14:55

May I suggest that everyone reads Klaus Schwab's Covid 19 - The Great Reset - available on Amazon for about 14 quid - cheaper on a Kindle download. No-one really wants to fund the giant that is Amazon but that's just another part of the problem. He is the head of the WEF and it makes for a very interesting and sobering read - considering the state of the union right now and the topics being discussed on this forum. If you haven't familiarised yourself with this character - then you need to do so now. You may feel it is of no relevance to Charlbury but you can bet you bottomed out dollar that it soon will be. 

Fri 7 Apr 2023, 19:25 (last edited on Fri 7 Apr 2023, 19:26)

Dont' worry that's gonna happen when the agenda is rolled out - you have no need to fret Matthew. 

Sat 1 Apr 2023, 14:55

I use my “stretch” Qashqai because it’s easier with my disability to get in and out of. 

Mon 27 Mar 2023, 15:29 (last edited on Mon 27 Mar 2023, 19:04)

Choice , Need , ? and for information the Nissan Qashqai is 53 mm longer than a Range Rover Evoque  ! 

Mon 27 Mar 2023, 08:19

Why pick on Qashqais? Nissan led the way in designing and developing this style of car. And did it, and still does in the UK. And Qashqais are  one of the few cars manufactured in the UK. Manufactured in Sunderland where it makes a major and much needed contribution to the local economy. The design was replicated by other manufacturers such Citroen and Peugeot and …. All imported!!  
It is a mid size vehicle. There are plenty of larger vehicles - “Chelsea tractors”. And if you are having to factor in  travelling with children, or grandchildren, and also long journeys on a motorway (M1 to the North East) then feeling safe is likely to contribute to choice of vehicle, including size. 

Sun 26 Mar 2023, 19:05 (last edited on Wed 5 Apr 2023, 16:55)

The growth in SUVs is only partly down to individuals’ choices. It is also a result of a deliberate strategy by car manufacturers. Selling much larger cars at a multiple of the price of a smaller vehicle. But a large car doesn’t cost all that much more to build.

Many car manufacturers’ costs are fixed (headquarters, advertising, research, safety regulations, etc). The actual cost of the metal in a car is only part of the cost. The result? A car that is twice as big will not cost twice as much to build, but will be typically sold for a much higher price.

So manufacturers have a huge incentive to sell larger vehicles – because they are so much more profitable. Many smaller cars are being discontinued. And as Hamish highlights, manufacturers increasingly promote leasing to conceal the higher showroom prices (and which in turn becomes another source of profits for manufacturers by the way).

It’s a model where incentives create private profits at the expense of public costs: more avoidable pollution and more dangerous roads.

In 2004 Morgan Spurlock produced a film called “supersize me” about how fast-food manufacturers used the same model to offer much larger portion sizes for what seemed like a small extra charge.

Again businesses were generating private profit but at the expense of public costs – in this case obesity and ill health. Again you hear the same arguments about just fulfilling consumer demands.

So there is a case for regulation, if only so that manufacturers have to take account of the wider costs to society of their business model.

Fri 24 Mar 2023, 18:17 (last edited on Fri 24 Mar 2023, 18:42)

Technically a Qashqai is a 'compact crossover SUV' anyway, so they can still be encompassed by the anti-SUV movement, Mike! You've also possibly misread the Autocar stats… it says 'crossovers/SUVs now account for 54.8% of all sales'. 'My' figures were for new car sales, not total share of the market, which I assume perhaps the 18% you mention refers to – though I can't check because the link requires registering with the site. Though pedantry aside, I think we're agreeing!

Fri 24 Mar 2023, 16:35

"I'd guess the UK [SUV share] is somewhere in the same ballpark [as the US or Australia}"

Just not true. According to Autocar, SUVs had just 18% of the UK market in the first nine months of 2022 - and that share was pretty static.

It doesn't look like that in Charlbury of course. Partly because the very concept is sort of aimed at people living in the countryside. But also because the real share growth in the past decade has been what Autocar calls "C-segment family cars" (now 38% of the market). That's someone's jargon for cars like the Nissan Qashqai that look like SUVs, but are smaller - but still bloody huge inconveniences to everyone else if parked in Park St, Market St or the Spendlove car park..

And that's the problem. In principle, there's no real problem banning large cars from parking in narrow streets, and fuel and road fund licence pricing already discriminate in favour of smaller cars. But Qashqais and their kin are the cars that really take up the space - and there's a fierce sense of entitlement to such cars among many owners on relatively modest incomes.

The anti-SUV argument has to target Qashqais too - and that's not just targeting Jeremy Clarkson but people who read his columns and watch Top Gear. 

Thu 23 Mar 2023, 16:42

One of the easiest ways of reducing the average car size on the UK's roads would be to make it harder to access the credit to "purchase" them. Something like >90% of new car sales are financed, this makes larger more expensive cars more available and has also pushed the prices up significantly as nobody is actually looking at the purchase price! How many car adverts now just quote the monthly payments price? 

Another key issue is that it's cheaper to drive than take the train, until this is reversed then what hope have we.

Thu 23 Mar 2023, 12:51 (last edited on Thu 23 Mar 2023, 12:53)

You can avoid the paywall anyway with this link: https://archive.ph/l8hpw

I haven't watched it yet but this video on the same subject was recommended to me recently.

Apparently almost 80% of new US vehicles are SUVs and >50% of Australian ones are. (I'd guess the UK is somewhere in the same ballpark.)

Thu 23 Mar 2023, 12:21 (last edited on Thu 23 Mar 2023, 12:23)

Very persuasive article from the Financial Times:

We should regulate SUVs out of existence

The Financial Times is behind a paywall but I seemed to be able to read the article the first time with out a subscription. Happy to copy and email if you are unable to read it...